suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

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overlander matt
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suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by overlander matt » Mon 21st Sep, 2020 11:08 pm

I'm looking at getting a few ceiling lights up and running soon. I bought a few cheap pendants to fit temporarily during the work phase on some of the rooms but I'm not sure these will be suitable as permanent fixtures. These have a fairly large base - a bit too big for the centre of the plaster ceiling rose so I'm wondering what a good alternative would be. Is there a good old style fitting I could consider or just a much smaller diameter pendant rose?

Thanks in advance,

Matt
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Feltwell
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Feltwell » Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 7:52 am

Broughtons are good for lighting. Lots of lights complete with ceiling roses, a few roses on their own but not many:-

https://www.broughtons.com/store/search ... ing%20rose

Zebra
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Zebra » Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 12:24 pm

Never seen a smaller sized standard plastic one (and I work in the industry..) unless, maybe IKEA??

Flyfisher
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Flyfisher » Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 6:15 pm

Zebra wrote:
Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 12:24 pm
Never seen a smaller sized standard plastic one (and I work in the industry..)
. . . probably because of the multiple wires that need to be connected, so difficult to fit into a smaller unit.

All these plaster ceiling roses seem to be designed for use with a standard electrical rose, albeit of different colours/finishes.
https://www.plasterceilingroses.com/col ... ling-roses

If the celing rose was easily accessible from above then perhaps the electrical rose could be fitted above the decorative rose and just the pendant flex poked through the ceiling - though I'm not sure if this arrangement would comply with latest wiring regulations.

One other thought; if it has to be a standard sized electrical rose and the light fitting itself is going to be suiable 'period' (ie more than a hanging bulb!) then it's worth considering 'plug-in' electrical roses. These case be completely detached from the ceiling-mounted part, which makes using a heavy/awkward light fitting a really easy job as it can be wired up on a table and then simply plugged in to the ceiling unit. Something like this, though there are many variations:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LDMC11E.html

CliffordPope
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by CliffordPope » Wed 23rd Sep, 2020 8:15 am

I've always used something like this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINI-SINGLE- ... Sw8H1abv3S

All the electrical connections are on a connector block pushed up inside the ceiling, the hole hidden by the rose.
You can't hang chandeliers, glass bowls etc on the wires - you need a sturdy hook screwed to the ceiling joist, and then the wires run separately out through the hole in the middle, and are of appropriate style and colour and either dangle freely or are discreetly tied to one of the chains etc or threaded through it.

I'm not too confident either of taking the weight of a heavy chandelier from a glued on plaster rose. I've just read a story of someone who cut off a rusty nut set in an upstairs floor and then discovered it held the massive period chandelier in the dining room below. :)

Feltwell
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Feltwell » Wed 23rd Sep, 2020 8:40 am

CliffordPope wrote:
Wed 23rd Sep, 2020 8:15 am
I'm not too confident either of taking the weight of a heavy chandelier from a glued on plaster rose. I've just read a story of someone who cut off a rusty nut set in an upstairs floor and then discovered it held the massive period chandelier in the dining room below. :)
It's an oldie but still a goodie......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZj3BY3186I

overlander matt
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by overlander matt » Sat 26th Sep, 2020 6:38 am

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will have a look at the ebay suggestions Clifford. There's no immediate rush - we don't have anything other than bulbs to fit right now. Certainly no chandeliers...

Zebra
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Zebra » Sat 26th Sep, 2020 9:54 pm

Flyfisher wrote:
Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 6:15 pm
If the celing rose was easily accessible from above then perhaps the electrical rose could be fitted above the decorative rose and just the pendant flex poked through the ceiling - though I'm not sure if this arrangement would comply with latest wiring regulations.
Not even the old regulations. Screw terminals on electrical joints have to be accessible for inspection and maintenance.
Flyfisher wrote:
Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 6:15 pm
One other thought; if it has to be a standard sized electrical rose and the light fitting itself is going to be suiable 'period' (ie more than a hanging bulb!) then it's worth considering 'plug-in' electrical roses. These case be completely detached from the ceiling-mounted part, which makes using a heavy/awkward light fitting a really easy job as it can be wired up on a table and then simply plugged in to the ceiling unit. Something like this, though there are many variations:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LDMC11E.html
They're quite big too though, as large as a standard ceiling rose.

Zebra
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Zebra » Sat 26th Sep, 2020 9:57 pm

CliffordPope wrote:
Wed 23rd Sep, 2020 8:15 am
I'm not too confident either of taking the weight of a heavy chandelier from a glued on plaster rose.
Indeed. You would always be looking to attach any but the least substantial fitting to the joists above, inserting a noggin if necessary between the joists. A plastic ceiling rose would be alright just attached to the plaster, but definitely not a chandelier!

Flyfisher
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Flyfisher » Sun 27th Sep, 2020 4:21 pm

Zebra wrote:
Sat 26th Sep, 2020 9:54 pm
Flyfisher wrote:
Tue 22nd Sep, 2020 6:15 pm
If the ceiling rose was easily accessible from above then perhaps the electrical rose could be fitted above the decorative rose and just the pendant flex poked through the ceiling - though I'm not sure if this arrangement would comply with latest wiring regulations.
Not even the old regulations. Screw terminals on electrical joints have to be accessible for inspection and maintenance.
Is there a definition of "accessible" or is this open to interpretation? For example, how about a junction box under a loose floorboard, or underneath layers of attic insulation, or 'boxed in' by a non-electrical tradesman during other works, etc?

Also, if a junction box really was inaccessible and therefore quite probably invisible, presumably an electrical inspection would not reveal it and the installation would be passed as compliant anyway.

CliffordPope
Posts: 617
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by CliffordPope » Sun 27th Sep, 2020 6:41 pm

Even the period hooks on a metal base can cover quite a large hole - nearly 2" across surely? That's easily enough to push a block connector through.
Undoing two wood screws to expose the connections is as accessible as any light switch or socket - the regulations on accessibility surely don't mean the live terminals have to be exposed? :)

Zebra
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Zebra » Mon 28th Sep, 2020 9:58 pm

Flyfisher wrote:
Sun 27th Sep, 2020 4:21 pm
Is there a definition of "accessible" or is this open to interpretation? For example, how about a junction box under a loose floorboard, or underneath layers of attic insulation, or 'boxed in' by a non-electrical tradesman during other works, etc?
Also, if a junction box really was inaccessible and therefore quite probably invisible, presumably an electrical inspection would not reveal it and the installation would be passed as compliant anyway.
Not defined. Definitely open to interpretation - can it be got at in future or not, and if not, then you ought to use a sprung-terminal push-fit type junction box, which doesn't have the potential to loosen itself over time. So in lofts is fine, even under insulation. Inside boxing-in fine, I suppose, depending on how it was fastened down. Under floorboards fine, even fixed and carpeted floorboards - in theory if they were lifted to install the junction box then they could be lifted for maintenance. But burying a screw-terminal junction box behind plaster is a bit tut-tut. As would be under a glued tongue-and-groove floor such as in a loft conversion.

However, I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that anyone would be actually doing this inspection and maintenance - as you say, for the most part you wouldn't know where they all were, and you can't possibly hope to inspect every single junction box when you do an inspection, so yes, you couldn't fail it for something you didn't know was there. And of course there are plenty of screw-type junction boxes undisturbed for 40 years doing their job just fine. But the scenario in question had the bottom end of a pendant poking through the plaster - bit of a giveaway that there's a junction there. If it were enclosed properly and accessible from above and any weight properly supported then it would be fine (I eat my words!)

It's four or five years since I've done any housebashing, and it may be that with the push-fit Wago type connectors becoming more common, electricians are moving away from traditional junction boxes, though I don't think so, you still see plenty of them for sale. Historically I suppose (by which I mean more than 10-20 years ago) most houses would have had nailed down floorboards rather than sheets of tongue-and-groove, lofts might not have been boarded, and the inaccessible junction might have been less prevalent than now.

Zebra
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Zebra » Mon 28th Sep, 2020 10:01 pm

CliffordPope wrote:
Sun 27th Sep, 2020 6:41 pm
Even the period hooks on a metal base can cover quite a large hole - nearly 2" across surely? That's easily enough to push a block connector through.
Undoing two wood screws to expose the connections is as accessible as any light switch or socket - the regulations on accessibility surely don't mean the live terminals have to be exposed? :)
Indeed (although unenclosed terminations such as connector block in a void is also not permitted by the regs, but I'm down off my high horse now and I'm not getting back up), but we were considering a solution where the base was dispensed with, and the pendant alone was poking through the plaster, so the connections would have been plastered over.

Me!
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Location: Suffolk

Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by Me! » Tue 29th Sep, 2020 8:54 am

How small do you need the base diameter to be to match the plaster?
These are older small style that I remember -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Authentic-Styl ... 40159&th=1

fernicarry
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Re: suitable sized pendant for ceiling rose

Post by fernicarry » Mon 5th Oct, 2020 10:27 pm

overlander matt wrote:
Mon 21st Sep, 2020 11:08 pm
These have a fairly large base - a bit too big for the centre of the plaster ceiling rose so I'm wondering what a good alternative would be. Is there a good old style fitting I could consider or just a much smaller diameter pendant rose?
Bit late. I bought some Hager Clik roses as they have a plug in system as mentioned by another poster. The diameter is a bit smaller than standard roses which gave me the opposite problem of having to make good around them so I didn't use them in the end.

I'f you go with the metal cover and hook make sure you have an earth. Earths used to be optional on lightning circuits. My downstairs lighting circuit loses its earth after the first couple of fittings.

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