Window restoration 1890 victorian house

[PatriciaMorgan]

Any dos and donts?

 

[a twig]

A quick search using the tool at the top should reveal a number of relevant threads for your perusal

 

[phillc]

What type of window? What is general condition?

Without a bit more context the best 'do' I can give you is 'do restore the windows'. The best 'don't' is 'don't set fire to them'.

General thoughts:

First cut pitch pine is probably better than any timber you can buy today. Repair not replace where you can.

Where there's rot, splicing in a new bit is better than slathering on the woodfiller - but needs more skill to ensure a good fit.

Where there's rot, cut back to good wood. You know what good wood looks like. Repairs onto wood that looks wrong but feels "hard enough" generally fail quickly.

Think LEAD PAINT. Read up on it before stripping anything.

Wood doesn't rot because it gets wet. It rots because it stays wet. Modern high street paints tend to put a plastic film over the wood that cracks, lets water in, doesn't let it back out. I am a fan of linseed paints - others will disagree.

For sashes, paint everything you can see with the window shut. Don't paint anything else (but wax it if you wanna be a pro). Exception is around the lower areas of the inner stiles and staff beads.

If your building is listed ignore all of the above and agree your plans with your conaervation officer.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

Thank you so much for replying! I am trying to load the photo , but technical hitch…just world like to know if a multitool drill type would damage . Can I use filler? Etc I will upload the photo as soon as iCloud lets me!

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

Thank you so much for replying! I am trying to load the photo , but technical hitch
Wondering about the cordless rotary tool. It seems like hard work chipping off the old paint arounf the metal part of the frame.

444FR Leyland Trade Wood Primer undercoat 750ml 1 14.99 14.99 0.00 0.00 14.99 12.49 2.50 20.0

21638 No Nonsense Exterior Frame Sealant White 310ml 1 5.99 5.99 0.00 0.00 5.99 4.99 1.00 20.0

770FM 2'' Filling Knife 1 4.85 4.85 0.00 0.00 4.85 4.04 0.81 20.0

263FM 3 Stripping Knife 1 6.19 6.19 0.00 0.00 6.19 5.16 1.03 20.0

812FM Flat Brush set 5pk 1 11.99 11.99 0.00 0.00 11.99 9.99 2.00 20.0

564PG TITAN 12V CORDLESS Rotary tool W/ 15 PCE ACC 1 29.99 29.99 0.00 0.00 29.99 24.99 5.00 20.0

674JG 10 PK GENERAL PURPOSE SANDPAPER 230 X 280 P80

GRIT 1 4.99 4.99 0.00 0.00 4.99 4.16 0.83 20.0

 

[mardinor]

Do restore, don't replace.

Do use RepairCare or Timbabuild filler system, don't wince at the cost or use 2-pack 'car body filler' (falls out with movement).
Do use decent paint you've never heard of (Jotun Demidekk or Bedec), don't use Dulux.

 

[Stevers]

The Sealants Online (CCC) epoxy filler and hardener are good value. The filler has a long working time and doesn't slump. I have used it to repair my bargeboards and window cills.
https://www.sealantsonline.co.uk/Products/Decorating/CCC0081
The link to their two part epoxy resin wood hardener is currently broken though.
https://www.sealantsonline.co.uk/Products/Epoxy-resin-wood-repair/CCC0080

I also have a huge regard for 'Bonda' wood hardener, pleasant to use and does an excellent job.
https://www.rustins.ltd/bonda/our-products/hardeners/bonda-wood-hardener-
Interesting stuff as it is said to be 'moisture hardened', and there's plenty of moisture involved in these sort of repairs. A huge upgrade on the Ronseal style solvent wood hardeners.

International Paints Ranch Paint lasted really well for me, and have been looking for an alternative that can go over it. Showing promise are the Zinsser Allcoat solvent based paints, and I have also been trialling their water based paint which seemed unusually nice to apply, and gets good reviews. There's more testing to do on that one. Both are self-priming and self-undercoating which makes refinishing a lot more straightforward.

No connection other than satisfied customer.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

This is the worst of the lot. Will need a replacement sill and a carpenter?
The upper part is a metal frame. Can I use a the multitool to edge off the broken bit do you think?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb949mlt-130w-electric-multi-tool-accessories-230-240v-214-piece-set/843pg

 

[Cubist]

I suspect that there is precious little there than can be saved. The cill is very likely to be no more than just a few strands of wet and rotten wood that falls apart if looked at too hard. That rot will have also infected to timbers of the frame above and it will very likely fall to pieces when any attempt is made to repair the cill or other parts of the frame. A good carpenter could replicate/reproduce the frame and re-use some of the more durable components but the cost of that would be significant. You should perhaps consider simply replacing this window frame, and any others in a similar state, with 'off the shelf' products that can be quickly and easily installed.

 

[Cubist]

By the way. That tool you are considering is completely inappropriate for anything other than a little light cleaning of the metal work. I suspect it would be a waste of your money.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

I suspect that there is precious little there than can be saved. The cill is very likely to be no more than just a few strands of wet and rotten wood that falls apart if looked at too hard. That rot will have also infected to timbers of the frame above and it will very likely fall to pieces when any attempt is made to repair the cill or other parts of the frame. A good carpenter could replicate/reproduce the frame and re-use some of the more durable components but the cost of that would be significant. You should perhaps consider simply replacing this window frame, and any others in a similar state, with 'off the shelf' products that can be quickly and easily installed.

Thanks for your reply! The frame above the cill is metal..If light cleaning of that shows up gaps , then those could be filled?. The wooden lower areas are mostly retrievable with sanding and repainting on the rest of the windows.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

The Sealants Online (CCC) epoxy filler and hardener are good value. The filler has a long working time and doesn't slump. I have used it to repair my bargeboards and window cills.
https://www.sealantsonline.co.uk/Products/Decorating/CCC0081
The link to their two part epoxy resin wood hardener is currently broken though.
https://www.sealantsonline.co.uk/Products/Epoxy-resin-wood-repair/CCC0080

I also have a huge regard for 'Bonda' wood hardener, pleasant to use and does an excellent job.
https://www.rustins.ltd/bonda/our-products/hardeners/bonda-wood-hardener-
Interesting stuff as it is said to be 'moisture hardened', and there's plenty of moisture involved in these sort of repairs. A huge upgrade on the Ronseal style solvent wood hardeners.

International Paints Ranch Paint lasted really well for me, and have been looking for an alternative that can go over it. Showing promise are the Zinsser Allcoat solvent based paints, and I have also been trialling their water based paint which seemed unusually nice to apply, and gets good reviews. There's more testing to do on that one. Both are self-priming and self-undercoating which makes refinishing a lot more straightforward.

No connection other than satisfied customer.

Thank you! Yes- the hardener sounds a great idea.

 

[Cubist]

Thanks for your reply! The frame above the cill is metal..If light cleaning of that shows up gaps , then those could be filled?. The wooden lower areas are mostly retrievable with sanding and repainting on the rest of the windows.

That would be correct but - the metal frame within which the glass is mounted would in turn be secured within an outer wooden frame of which the wooden cill is just one component. That outer wooden frame though anchors the window frame to the fabric of the building. Bluntly put, if the outer wooden frame is as rotten as the photo suggests then there is a considerable risk that the whole thing could be easily dislodged and fall out. Whilst tidying up and cleaning the old paint from the metal inner frame may be cosmetically helpful, the problems with the outer wooden frame are much more fundamental and should be properly addressed. These need to be fully and carefully examined to determine the extent of the rot and determine whether it is even possible to save it.

Again, the tool you are considering is not appropriate. If anything it will only be of use to deal with the cosmetic cleaning of the metal frame and perhaps some small parts of the outer woodwork.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

Just another photo that explains the situation...

 

[Oldschool]

well done you for wanting to repair them, despite what others have said it's really difficult to tell how far gone that worst window is from your photo, have you tried gently probing with a screw driver, as you say a decent carpenter could replace the cill if the rest is solid. I've had good results from standard wood hardener to buy more time. Good luck with it!

 

[Cubist]

Clearly this other window frame appears to be in much better condition and its restoration much less challenging. It also provides some further indicators of the probable sources of the root problem affecting the first one you provided insofar that it is clear that;

1. The paint work has not been effectively maintained in the past and through weather exposure - fair and foul - cracks and fissures have formed in the paint that have almost certainly caused rainwater to be trapped against the wood to perhaps induce rot.
2. The original caulking material between the wooden outer frame and the stonework of the building has deteriorated and failed to allow driven rain to penetrate and rest against the woodwork of the frame.
3. The putty work around the glazing too has been neglected and its paint coating has also cracked and failed. Theres a likelihood that the putty has separated from the steel window frame in some places and perhaps water is also finding its way indoors.

It's hard to guess the age of the old paint so it's best to assume it's lead based and therefore dangerous. Ideally a chemical paint stripper should be used to remove the old paint from both the wooden and steel frames - do not be tempted to sand the paint off unless you are wearing a suitable mask. You would be well advised in any event to keep sandpaper or similar abrasives away from the glass as it can leave deep and permanently visible scratches in its surface.

If you discover that the putty work has failed and/or simply comes out as you are preparing the frame it may be best to remove all of it and use new putty to re-seal the glass panes in place.

Hopefully you will find that the bulk of the wooden outer frame is in good structural condition and merely needs some fairly cosmetic repairs. If however, the cills and perhaps also the posts have fallen victim to significant rot that cannot be addressed using chemical treatments and fillers then you may find that your only option is to remove the inner steel frame - not an easy job in itself - and the repair/replace the outer wooden frame.

Also, I think a multi-tool of the type below would be much more appropriate for your needs. The dremmel type system you previously mentioned is only really of use with very small scale or highly detailed work.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb892mlt-300w-electric-multi-tool-240v/154VV?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20523993760&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPz0gwERbiXwmoDwXewkWSOfJ&gclid=CjwKCAjwvuLDBhAOEiwAPtF0Vru3v0Cpc8J2frgB7taxmB_L5VKafCdpsZnsueIA1tS8X73LvOtI5xoCMIUQAvD_BwE

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

well done you for wanting to repair them, despite what others have said it's really difficult to tell how far gone that worst window is from your photo, have you tried gently probing with a screw driver, as you say a decent carpenter could replace the cill if the rest is solid. I've had good results from standard wood hardener to buy more time. Good luck with it!

thank you for your encouragement! I payed a workman to do this work 3 years ago and it is now back to this state- hence my having a go at it myself!

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

Clearly this other window frame appears to be in much better condition and its restoration much less challenging. It also provides some further indicators of the probable sources of the root problem affecting the first one you provided insofar that it is clear that;

1. The paint work has not been effectively maintained in the past and through weather exposure - fair and foul - cracks and fissures have formed in the paint that have almost certainly caused rainwater to be trapped against the wood to perhaps induce rot.
2. The original caulking material between the wooden outer frame and the stonework of the building has deteriorated and failed to allow driven rain to penetrate and rest against the woodwork of the frame.
3. The putty work around the glazing too has been neglected and its paint coating has also cracked and failed. Theres a likelihood that the putty has separated from the steel window frame in some places and perhaps water is also finding its way indoors.

It's hard to guess the age of the old paint so it's best to assume it's lead based and therefore dangerous. Ideally a chemical paint stripper should be used to remove the old paint from both the wooden and steel frames - do not be tempted to sand the paint off unless you are wearing a suitable mask. You would be well advised in any event to keep sandpaper or similar abrasives away from the glass as it can leave deep and permanently visible scratches in its surface.

If you discover that the putty work has failed and/or simply comes out as you are preparing the frame it may be best to remove all of it and use new putty to re-seal the glass panes in place.

Hopefully you will find that the bulk of the wooden outer frame is in good structural condition and merely needs some fairly cosmetic repairs. If however, the cills and perhaps also the posts have fallen victim to significant rot that cannot be addressed using chemical treatments and fillers then you may find that your only option is to remove the inner steel frame - not an easy job in itself - and the repair/replace the outer wooden frame.

Also, I think a multi-tool of the type below would be much more appropriate for your needs. The dremmel type system you previously mentioned is only really of use with very small scale or highly detailed work.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb892mlt-300w-electric-multi-tool-240v/154VV?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20523993760&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPz0gwERbiXwmoDwXewkWSOfJ&gclid=CjwKCAjwvuLDBhAOEiwAPtF0Vru3v0Cpc8J2frgB7taxmB_L5VKafCdpsZnsueIA1tS8X73LvOtI5xoCMIUQAvD_BwE

That's really useful advice! Thank you . Will buy the better tool today. I'm trying to patch up work done about 3 years ago by a workman! (£900) And yes- water does come in when there is driving rain.

 

[PatriciaMorgan]

Clearly this other window frame appears to be in much better condition and its restoration much less challenging. It also provides some further indicators of the probable sources of the root problem affecting the first one you provided insofar that it is clear that;

1. The paint work has not been effectively maintained in the past and through weather exposure - fair and foul - cracks and fissures have formed in the paint that have almost certainly caused rainwater to be trapped against the wood to perhaps induce rot.
2. The original caulking material between the wooden outer frame and the stonework of the building has deteriorated and failed to allow driven rain to penetrate and rest against the woodwork of the frame.
3. The putty work around the glazing too has been neglected and its paint coating has also cracked and failed. Theres a likelihood that the putty has separated from the steel window frame in some places and perhaps water is also finding its way indoors.

It's hard to guess the age of the old paint so it's best to assume it's lead based and therefore dangerous. Ideally a chemical paint stripper should be used to remove the old paint from both the wooden and steel frames - do not be tempted to sand the paint off unless you are wearing a suitable mask. You would be well advised in any event to keep sandpaper or similar abrasives away from the glass as it can leave deep and permanently visible scratches in its surface.

If you discover that the putty work has failed and/or simply comes out as you are preparing the frame it may be best to remove all of it and use new putty to re-seal the glass panes in place.

Hopefully you will find that the bulk of the wooden outer frame is in good structural condition and merely needs some fairly cosmetic repairs. If however, the cills and perhaps also the posts have fallen victim to significant rot that cannot be addressed using chemical treatments and fillers then you may find that your only option is to remove the inner steel frame - not an easy job in itself - and the repair/replace the outer wooden frame.

Also, I think a multi-tool of the type below would be much more appropriate for your needs. The dremmel type system you previously mentioned is only really of use with very small scale or highly detailed work.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-ttb892mlt-300w-electric-multi-tool-240v/154VV?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20523993760&gbraid=0AAAAAD8IdPz0gwERbiXwmoDwXewkWSOfJ&gclid=CjwKCAjwvuLDBhAOEiwAPtF0Vru3v0Cpc8J2frgB7taxmB_L5VKafCdpsZnsueIA1tS8X73LvOtI5xoCMIUQAvD_BwE

Thanks again for the tool recommendation. Do you think it would be worth getting the cordless one?
https://www.screwfix.com/p/titan-tt...re/963vr#product_additional_details_container I