- Thread starter Notlbishop
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Flyfisher
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My eye was drawn to the beam supports - is it really ok to use use some timber pads as shown or are they just temporary while the beam is being located in position and will be replaced by a padstone of some sort as the final solution?
To my mind, those bits of wood are likely to compress in the future (they are not even a hardwood like oak etc) resulting in a slight beam movement and anything supported by it. It may be structurally sound in the sense that nothing will collapse but surely it will mean some movement in the future. I'm not saying it's wrong as I'm not an SE, and the fact that there IS an SE apparently involved in checking this work probably means it is ok. I'm just surprised, that's all.
To my mind, those bits of wood are likely to compress in the future (they are not even a hardwood like oak etc) resulting in a slight beam movement and anything supported by it. It may be structurally sound in the sense that nothing will collapse but surely it will mean some movement in the future. I'm not saying it's wrong as I'm not an SE, and the fact that there IS an SE apparently involved in checking this work probably means it is ok. I'm just surprised, that's all.
stuart45
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@Notlbishop are you going through Building Control for regularisation?
Notlbishop
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Yes previously didn’t have any compliance cert which meant we’d never be able to sell anyway. That will all be in place by the time they’re done, not sure what their final plan is but as far as I know they following the instructions from the SE. We were waiting some time before they were sent theough so they wouldn’t touch it til those instructions were provided.
Historic Housesitter
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Thank you for the photos, they do help with the context. It also occurred to me, are you in a conservation area?
Another thing that occured to me, planning, conservation and building regs only came about and were new in the 80s, you may find that work on your house was done before this. Apparently it was quite normal, although how the rooms above didn't collapse, I don't know.
As well as the SE input, perhaps find the name of the (building!) Conservation Officer for Dorset Council - PlanningConservation@dorsetcouncil.gov.uk - as well as the afforementioned Listed Property Owners Club ( https://www.lpoc.co.uk/ ). These people will be your friend throughout this exercise. They will also be able to advise you on what should be done in their eyes, which can often be different from Building Control regs, as they have a more sympathetic approach to these older buildings, whereas building control only really deal in textbook house building regulations (that annoyingly change every few years anyway).
Looking at these photos, on closer inspection and with the added knowledge that you have this render, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you have these cracks in the plaster. The moisture has been sucked out of the wall from both sides (cement render and plaster), so this has caused the crumbly mortar bed.
It does look like you are missing a support beam over your window. Again, acrow props supporting a solid plank of wood in the meantime but; for that era, an oak, concrete or reinforced steel beam positioned and encapsulated correctly, if there are cracks above the window.
Please do not allow the builder to employ a plasterer, as they will undoubtedly use gypsum plaster 'for quickness and cheapness'.
Better you think of the 'house health' first and employ one of the few lime plasterers out there... or... clean up the exposed brick and use a feature colour of Earthborn Claypaint (sadly one of the only paints that haven't been bought out and cheapened with acrylic additives).
There are a number of suppliers of lime putty as it's known, but not many plasterers based your way (not on LPOC books anyway, you may have more luck contacting the below companies and see if they can recommend one.
www.limerepair.com (based in Somerset)
https://www.limestuff.co.uk/ (supplier based in Wiltshire)
www.mikewye.co.uk (supplier of various, but also has an in-house 'Building Biologist'(!)
www.roseofjericho.co.uk (supplier and advisor based in Dorchester, Dorset)
www.heritagecobandlime.com (supplier in Devon)
Edit:
Dorset Council
Email: PlanningConservation@dorsetcouncil.gov.uk
Tel: 01305 838336
Select option 4 from the telephone menu.
Another thing that occured to me, planning, conservation and building regs only came about and were new in the 80s, you may find that work on your house was done before this. Apparently it was quite normal, although how the rooms above didn't collapse, I don't know.
As well as the SE input, perhaps find the name of the (building!) Conservation Officer for Dorset Council - PlanningConservation@dorsetcouncil.gov.uk - as well as the afforementioned Listed Property Owners Club ( https://www.lpoc.co.uk/ ). These people will be your friend throughout this exercise. They will also be able to advise you on what should be done in their eyes, which can often be different from Building Control regs, as they have a more sympathetic approach to these older buildings, whereas building control only really deal in textbook house building regulations (that annoyingly change every few years anyway).
Looking at these photos, on closer inspection and with the added knowledge that you have this render, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you have these cracks in the plaster. The moisture has been sucked out of the wall from both sides (cement render and plaster), so this has caused the crumbly mortar bed.
It does look like you are missing a support beam over your window. Again, acrow props supporting a solid plank of wood in the meantime but; for that era, an oak, concrete or reinforced steel beam positioned and encapsulated correctly, if there are cracks above the window.
Please do not allow the builder to employ a plasterer, as they will undoubtedly use gypsum plaster 'for quickness and cheapness'.
Better you think of the 'house health' first and employ one of the few lime plasterers out there... or... clean up the exposed brick and use a feature colour of Earthborn Claypaint (sadly one of the only paints that haven't been bought out and cheapened with acrylic additives).
There are a number of suppliers of lime putty as it's known, but not many plasterers based your way (not on LPOC books anyway, you may have more luck contacting the below companies and see if they can recommend one.
www.limerepair.com (based in Somerset)
https://www.limestuff.co.uk/ (supplier based in Wiltshire)
www.mikewye.co.uk (supplier of various, but also has an in-house 'Building Biologist'(!)
www.roseofjericho.co.uk (supplier and advisor based in Dorchester, Dorset)
www.heritagecobandlime.com (supplier in Devon)
Edit:
Dorset Council
Planning conservation
Email: PlanningConservation@dorsetcouncil.gov.uk
Tel: 01305 838336
Select option 4 from the telephone menu.
Last edited:
Historic Housesitter
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I'm with Flyfisher on this one - the wood used is generally used for carcasing, rafters, fake beams and the like, not actual support beams, holding up a wall above? Especially the supporting pieces underneath! Even bolted together, there will be stress cracks and more movement very quickly. At the very least it should be sandwiched with proper oak support beams, something that can be bought in the same builders' merchants as that wood shown here.
The builder really is not experienced and may be hoping for more work down the line. Wooden blocks need replacing with engineering bricks at the very least.
Historic Housesitter
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You can still sell on, but it would need a sign-off after current updating work. If the BC doesn't sign you off, you sell via an auction house or your estate agent stipulates cash buyer only, as a mortgage won't be possible. Don't tell your own mortgage company - just saying!
Quite common for houses to be sold without BC. Solicitors just take out indemnity insurance. Mortgage companies are usually happy with this as I understand it.
Historic Housesitter
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This is part of our RSJ / steel beam - much as it irks me as; from a conservation perspective, I'd prefer a nice chunky oak beam as of old (those buildings are still standing so what's wrong?), these are engineering bricks and cement.
Historic Housesitter
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Ah yes, true.
Notlbishop
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No i’m 99% sure we’re not in a conservation area. A quick postcode search confirms the same.Thank you for the photos, they do help with the context. It also occurred to me, are you in a conservation area?
Another thing that occured to me, planning, conservation and building regs only came about and were new in the 80s, you may find that work on your house was done before this. Apparently it was quite normal, although how the rooms above didn't collapse, I don't know.
As well as the SE input, perhaps find the name of the (building!) Conservation Officer for Dorset Council - PlanningConservation@dorsetcouncil.gov.uk - as well as the afforementioned Listed Property Owners Club ( https://www.lpoc.co.uk/ ). These people will be your friend throughout this exercise. They will also be able to advise you on what should be done in their eyes, which can often be different from Building Control regs, as they have a more sympathetic approach to these older buildings, whereas building control only really deal in textbook house building regulations (that annoyingly change every few years anyway).
Looking at these photos, on closer inspection and with the added knowledge that you have this render, it doesn't surprise me in the slightest you have these cracks in the plaster. The moisture has been sucked out of the wall from both sides (cement render and plaster), so this has caused the crumbly mortar bed.
It does look like you are missing a support beam over your window. Again, acrow props supporting a solid plank of wood in the meantime but; for that era, an oak, concrete or reinforced steel beam positioned and encapsulated correctly, if there are cracks above the window.
Please do not allow the builder to employ a plasterer, as they will undoubtedly use gypsum plaster 'for quickness and cheapness'.
Better you think of the 'house health' first and employ one of the few lime plasterers out there... or... clean up the exposed brick and use a feature colour of Earthborn Claypaint (sadly one of the only paints that haven't been bought out and cheapened with acrylic additives).
There are a number of suppliers of lime putty as it's known, but not many plasterers based your way (not on LPOC books anyway, you may have more luck contacting the below companies and see if they can recommend one.
www.limerepair.com (based in Somerset)
https://www.limestuff.co.uk/ (supplier based in Wiltshire)
www.mikewye.co.uk (supplier of various, but also has an in-house 'Building Biologist'(!)
www.roseofjericho.co.uk (supplier and advisor based in Dorchester, Dorset)
www.heritagecobandlime.com (supplier in Devon)
Just to confirm terminology - by render do you mean the concrete cladding on the outside coupled with the plaster used on the inside has caused the drying out?
On the plasterer they have one coming in, but feel we’re along way from that happening anyway
But before the plasterer how do i fix what we’ve found in your opinion. Is the stitching of the cracks not a good idea?
I’m just so confused on how we got here, what has caused the issues and what needs fixing and what to do next.
Issue - cracks in the outside cladding. Caused by - no lintel. Fix - lintel above windows / doors. Not started yet.
Issue - wrong beam used in the kitchen. Caused by - previous dodgy work. Fix - new flitch beam. Started. Need to check - correct pad stones used (?)
Issue - crumbly mortar. Caused by - cement cladding and plaster drawn moisture out of mortar (?) - fix - ?
Issue - cracks in bricks. Caused by - movement of house (?) not sure what’s caused the movement (?) Could crumbly mortar cause cracks in the bricks? Fix - stitching suggested and prepared downstairs. More severe cracks found upstairs referred to SE for now visit tomoro AM. The bricks and mortar (seen in previous pic) holding it together is rock solid apart from the top
I think that’s the best of my knowledge right now.
Lacan07
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lol that builder sounds a bit of drama queen. The mortar in my 200+ year old house can be a bit crumbly in places, built on clay that sways and heaves like Carol Vorderman's t*** in a wind tunnel, zero foundations - no cracks here.
stuart45
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I can't follow all the technical info, but you get a like for Carol Vorderman's T$$$.
Cubist
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If I have properly understood all the information you have supplied and the feedback you've received thus far then the underlying and root causes for all the critical damage are:-
- The removal of the internal solid wall to enlarge the ground floor area and a failure to install a suitable lintel/beam/steel to support the floor above AND to properly tie the outer wall with the wider masonry structure of the house.
- That original wall may also have directly carried the weight of a wall/walls on the upper floor used to create particular rooms and to ultimately carry some elements of the roof structure.
- Replacement of window frames on the ground floor without installing suitable lintels will have also weakened the structural integrity of the outer wall.
- Heavy snow loads on the roof could then result in rafter spread to exert outward pressure on the wall and producing stresses in the main masonry structure to in turn induce the cracks in the party wall.
- Its worth noting that such stress/tension damage results from transient and repeated occurrences of such loads rather than a 'one time' incident,
- Also, that such repeated events can also produce a grinding effect inside cracks in the mortar to further weaken the structure and to in effect pulverise the mortar itself.
Generally right now I think you are moving into a good position and the longer term threats are coming under control. Nevertheless I would be keeping a close eye on that builder, he seems a trifle nervy to me.
stuart45
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The bearing timbers aren't an issue. The house is being demolished and rebuilt next year.
Cubist
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Coo... what did I miss?
stuart45
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Loads of great info. I've learnt today that render and plaster suck all the moisture out of the brick joints and wreck it.
Cubist
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I got that one and am still puzzling over how that works but saw nothing about the place being demolished - except the thoughts/idea of a contractor?
Historic Housesitter
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Yup, render is the external 'plastering' of a wall. Styles are all different, but it's especially common in areas exposed to adverse weather conditions.
Don't have plastering done yet. Certainly not gypsum or NHL 3.5 .
If the supporting beam (with correct wood cladding and engineeering brick pads!!!) does it's job properly and nothing else opens up in the meantime, there is no need for the helibar / pinning as things wouldn't move any more than usual thermal expansion.
You ask 'Could crumbly mortar cause cracks in the bricks?' No it doesn't, but the cementeous material surrounding it does. As stated previously by myself and others, lime putty is soft by design to allow bricks to drain of water / moisture into the lime without damage.
They work reciprocally. Lime is able to withstand frost and heat and takes the hit, self-repairing in damper weather, so that the bricks don't 'blow' (loose their 'face') or crack when the frost and ice gets into any natural cracks and fissures in their design, every winter. Where your walls have been clad in current plaster and render, this hasn't been allowed and the plaster / render simply saps everything from both lime and brick, weakening both. This is where dampening and repointing with lime putty is essential to maintain the integrity of the walls.
Back to the builder - If they feel they must use helibars, then ensure minimal use of the resin, rather than any cement / grout. TBH it is super easy to use yourself, although you need a specific 'skeleton gun' to us the below resin:
We used RKEM II bonded anchor, as our de-rendered, blown-and-carved-up-bricks Victorian house (think Wolverine and Freddy Kreuger with an angle grinder) , needed help accepting the bolts needed for our new roof's ledger board. I would certainly use this over cement / grout as while it sticks like the proverbial, it won't sap the moisture from the bricks and lime surrounding it, like cement bond would.
In honesty and sadly experience, I suspect the will try to talk you down, but you need to be firm. To me, so far, it doesn't look like they know what they're doing - and so far it's looking very dicey IMHO. I recognise they are already doing things on the cheap, judging by the style of the 'RSJ' and its plinth of treated timber, rather than all blocks or engineering bricks.
TBH, don't be scared to request the builder redo the support structure for the beam and then *sack him* and find a new one (even ask the SE if they know a good one from another job they've looked at), they are ten-a-penny these days and while you may need to wait for a good one, they are out there (I think).
In the meantime you would then have time to call upon companies that will know what you need, even if you do it in sections:
RSJ / Steel beam manufacturers will fabricate and install it themselves (they too may know a good builder).
A different builder or handyman to install the window lintel.
Lime plasterer - or go on a course, it's fun stuff to work with and you're missing out!
As for cladding outside, depending on your budget, have this removed next year and repoint the bricks with lime putty. It isn't an urgent issue at this point and all cement render cracks over time, so, so long as the pointing is fairly sound, concentrate on what is going on with the other main issues you are currently dealing with.
Lime plasterer - DEFINITELY use lime putty for the repointing and plastering as directed, which will allow the walls to do their usual thing in response to movement with thermal expansion. If you don't, your walls will simply crack again with the natural movement.
stuart45
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The SE is going in tomorrow, so there could be stay of execution.