To buy or not to buy? 30s semi with Rayburn

[larches]

Hi all. Been house hunting for ages, and finally found somewhere that has been well-extended and ticks most of our boxes. But... we're no experts and have never had a semi or a pre-1980s house before, so there are a few things making us hesitate.

The first thing that made me pause was the gas-fired Rayburn for cooking and heating. I know some people love them (and would say to live with it before deciding), but I really doubt we are those people. For a start, having two hotplates (one boil, one simmer) when I'm used to a four ring gas hob, and I'm sure the oven is great but I don't do much roasting or baking.

So if we were to replace the 'cooker', we'd have to find another range cooker to fit the gap (or otherwise just fill it out somehow), but more importantly we'd be looking at new central heating too, whether we whack in a gas boiler or get a heat pump through the boiler upgrade scheme, which would add a lot of cost to an already big outlay (it's an expensive area). Pretty sure it will need insulation upgrades too, and daft as it may sound, we're not even sure if it has cavity walls (typically, the EPC, current owner and estate agents aren't much help).

Then there's the house condition generally, which I'm hoping to get some views on here. It seems in reasonable nick for the most part, no obvious signs of damp/mould (unlike many we've seen) and fairly well maintained by the current owner. But there is a prominent crack on the wall in the landing, on what used to be the outer wall but now forms part of the extension that was added about 20 years ago (see picture 1). Also some cracks on either side of the window recess (south-facing), though probably not that unusual (pics 2 & 3).

Outside, the mortar looks fine in some areas and not too good in others - so we're not sure if it just needs targeted repointing or if the whole darn thing needs redoing. And then there's the chimney breast in the loft, which to my admittedly untrained eye does not look in great condition (pics 4 & 5). No idea what the cost would be to sort that out.

So in summary, we like the house but are a bit nervous about committing to a load of expense and upheaval if it needs a lot doing, even aside from some other changes we'd probably want to make. I'd be interested in people's views on those photos, and any considerations more generally to help us decide, especially as newcomers to this type of house.

 

[larches]

Just to add - we would also want to extend the kitchen into the rear dining space shown on the attached floorplan, keeping the middle section as the dining room but preferably having some kind of separation bewteen that and the living room. Maybe something non-permanent, just enough to make each room feel a bit cosier rather than one big open space (but maybe allowing warmth from the south-facing living room through to the dining room). Any ideas welcome!

 

[LadyArowana]

If you are looking to extend the kitchen anyway you could always incorporate a separate induction hob and microwave. We inherited a gas fired Aga which had some sort of back boiler arrangement and the house also had a gas boiler. I was going to get rid of the Aga, but had it converted to electric as only a range cooker, but also got a 2 section hob, electric oven and microwave. As I understand it a Rayburn can also be converted, and probably given the whole colour change/ re-enamel too. I love our electric Aga now, makes a really nice feature in the kitchen and provides great background warmth in Winter as there’s no radiator in there and it’s a North facing room. I was initially worried about the wastefulness of it being “always on” but we turn her off over Spring and Summer and use the other hob +. With the cold weather now I flipped the switch yesterday.

I have zero expertise on anything structural but to an untrained eye the internal plaster cracks don’t look like anything, chimney a bit ho hum. I assume they haven’t done anything mad like remove the chimney breasts below and leave it unsupported? I did notice a plastic pipe in the roof that seems to have been intalled just resting on a brick and I wondered what the purpose of that was. I’m sure other wise minds will be along.

 

[a twig]

Agree very much with @LadyArowana -

1) Cracks are nothing to worry about
2) I’ve seen worse chimney breasts, at most just needs some repointing.
3) For moving in purposes essentially consider your Rayburn as a big radiator and boiler and install some electric hobs for your cooking. Then you have everything you need in place while you get plans sorted out for future potential boiler installs, re-configuring kitchens etc

 

[stuart45]

The EPC should state the construction of the walls, even though it could be wrong. You need to measure the width of the wall at the jambs. Quite a few 30's houses had cavity ground floor and solid upper floor walls.
Is the external face brick or rendered?

 

[fernicarry]

We had to adapt to cooking on the Aga when we first moved in. Its a whole different technique as there is no temperature control as such, you adjust the rate of cooking by moving between the two hotplates and by moving pans part on and off. We also don't do an awful lot of roasting or baking but its so handy having an oven that's always up to temperature that you can pop something into to heat up (first world problems). Because it was the only cooking appliance and it did all the hot water it was on 24x7 for the first couple of years. The heat into the room is usually welcome but in the middle of summer it did get too much even at our rarified lattitude.

Now we have parallel modern electric appliances and the Aga is only lit from around Xmas to Easter. If its lit then it still gets used a lot to cook on so seems that we (by which I mean predominantly my partner) still enjoy the Aga cooking experience. Possibly a bit profligate having 4 ovens to choose from... Being oil fired is also a good hedge against electricity or gas disruption as it only needs gravity to keep it running and I'll admit thats quite a big factor in making me want to hang on to it but obviously wouldn't be for you.

So I'd be in the try it and see camp. Like us you may have no alternative if and when you move in so you'll get to form your own opinion. If you do keep it I would however make plans to decouple it from the central heating. Its probably less efficient than a modern gas boiler for one thing but obviously govt policy is steering us away from combustion heating and it will take time and money to plan for that. It could still do your hot water or contribute to your hot water. All our space and water heating comes via a thermal store with the Aga's small boiler being one of the appliances feeding into that.

 

[paulc]

If you are looking to extend the kitchen anyway you could always incorporate a separate induction hob and microwave.

Another vote for an induction hob. It is just like cooking on gas without the safety risks. Pans seem to stay cleaner and any burnt on deposits come off with a short soak. Downside is you may need a whole new set of pans (need a magnetic base to work). Also not recommended if you have a pacemaker.

The EPC should state the construction of the walls, even though it could be wrong. You need to measure the width of the wall at the jambs. Quite a few 30's houses had cavity ground floor and solid upper floor walls.
Is the external face brick or rendered?

If the upper walls are of solid construction with a cavity on the lower half, window reveals will be around 2-3" smaller. Another hint will be render on the upper half with a row of corbelled brick or tiles at the junction.
If any of the ground floor windows & doors have been replaced, ask for proof that a lintel has been fitted to support the outer leaf of brickwork. Should there be any cracks in the render or brickwork (or signs of repointing) above openings, that would suggest that appropriate support hasn't been retrofitted.

 

[Cubist]

The Rayburn is a huge and heavy piece of kit and no doubt takes up a large chunk of whatever room it currently sits in. That space could easily accommodate a standalone CH boiler and a new hob/oven combo powered by gas or electricity as you desire. The costs for such are immediately available and, provided there is sufficient space, relatively easy to install to replace the Rayburn.

 

[larry]

To identify if a wall is a solid wall, look for a brick bond pattern that shows both the ends and sides of bricks (i.e..both small and long sections). If you can only see long sections then it is either a cavity wall or perhaps a single skinned wall. Obvs only works if bricks aren't behind render!

To visualise the difference just imagine how you could build a wall differently with Lego that is one brick width thick (then put two of those together with a gap in the middle to turn it into a cavity wall) Vs one that is one brick length thick.

Or measure the width of the walls at the window.

 

[stuart45]

The bond pattern isn't 100% accurate to tell a cavity from a solid wall. You occasionally come across solid 9 inch walls built in Stretcher bond, and cavity walls built in mock Flemish bond with snapped headers.

 

[larry]

The bond pattern isn't 100% accurate to tell a cavity from a solid wall. You occasionally come across solid 9 inch walls built in Stretcher bond, and cavity walls built in mock Flemish bond with snapped headers.

Ooh that's helpful - always an exception!!

 

[larches]

Thanks everyone! Lots of good points there. I forgot to say that heating efficiency was our other concern with the Rayburn, aside from the cooking aspect. It does seem likely to be less efficient than a modern condensing boiler, but on the other hand, it's maybe difficult to weigh up reliably without knowing what our usage pattern would be. And then there's the higher cost of electricity to factor in if we had an induction hob (which I like) + boiler instead. From what we can gather, the current owner seems to leave the Rayburn off quite a lot. She had an electric shower installed, and has sometimes used the immersion heater for her hot water, which didn't strike me as encouraging - neither known for being a cheap/efficient option, but then I suppose nor is heating a big tank of water for a one-person household. I understand the oven and heating can be run completely independently, with the latter on a timeswitch, so that's good at least. The other thing to mention is that we are currently renting so we could potentially get some work done before moving in, as long as it doesn't require a lengthy overlap paying rent + mortgage. But that's why I thought it might be good to decide in advance if the Rayburn is going, so we wouldn't have to live through the disruption.

Just to pick up on some of the questions/suggestions - I did wonder about keeping the Rayburn and installing a separate oven & hob, but our motivation for extending the kitchen is that there's not really enough workspace currently, so would be reluctant to lose some to another hob (though I guess some stuff can go on top of the Rayburn when not in use). On the EPC and construction side of things, it's the same problem we often see with EPCs in that the caveat "(assumed)" is used liberally, so we've no idea whether to have any faith in it:

Feature Description Rating
Wall Cavity wall, as built, no insulation (assumed) Poor
Wall Cavity wall, as built, insulated (assumed) Good
Roof Pitched, 300 mm loft insulation Very good
Roof Pitched, insulated (assumed) Very good
Floor Suspended, no insulation (assumed) N/A
Floor To unheated space, insulated (assumed) N/A
Floor Solid, insulated (assumed) N/A
Window Fully double glazed Poor
Main heating Boiler and radiators, mains gas Good
Main heating control Programmer, room thermostat and TRVs Good
Hot water From main system Good

I'm just guessing that the insulated cavity wall (assumed) will relate to the modern extension, and the the 'no insulation' part will be the original walls. I suppose the assumption is really just over the insulation rather than the aspect of it being a cavity wall, and sure enough I've just spotted a line saying "Cavity fill is recommended" - I just wonder why that wouldn't have been done already? It does look like a stretcher bond btw (no rendering), but I neglected to measure the depth of the window reveals on both floors.

I reckon some of our first priorities (unless a survey says otherwise) would be to get the cavity wall insulation done, maybe floor insulation too if feasible, and also get some repointing done. I understand it's important to use lime mortar instead of cement to avoid introducing damp issues, and similarly we'd need to find someone who knows what they're doing to do the insulation, avoiding potential condensation, thermal bridging or whatever (maybe also to assess the DPC). All of which makes me think we'd better leave a fairly generous budget for these things. Not sure if there are lead pipes to worry about too, but on the plus side, it has at least been re-roofed and rewired, albeit about 20 years ago when the extension was done.

 

[LadyArowana]

I reckon some of our first priorities (unless a survey says otherwise) would be to get the cavity wall insulation done,

I seem to remember discussions on here about cavity wall insulation being one of the things which contributes to dampness but may be mistaken, our house is built from big blocks of stone so it’s not something which I have paid too much attention to.

 

[stuart45]

Thanks everyone! Lots of good points there. I forgot to say that heating efficiency was our other concern with the Rayburn, aside from the cooking aspect. It does seem likely to be less efficient than a modern condensing boiler, but on the other hand, it's maybe difficult to weigh up reliably without knowing what our usage pattern would be. And then there's the higher cost of electricity to factor in if we had an induction hob (which I like) + boiler instead. From what we can gather, the current owner seems to leave the Rayburn off quite a lot. She had an electric shower installed, and has sometimes used the immersion heater for her hot water, which didn't strike me as encouraging - neither known for being a cheap/efficient option, but then I suppose nor is heating a big tank of water for a one-person household. I understand the oven and heating can be run completely independently, with the latter on a timeswitch, so that's good at least. The other thing to mention is that we are currently renting so we could potentially get some work done before moving in, as long as it doesn't require a lengthy overlap paying rent + mortgage. But that's why I thought it might be good to decide in advance if the Rayburn is going, so we wouldn't have to live through the disruption.

Just to pick up on some of the questions/suggestions - I did wonder about keeping the Rayburn and installing a separate oven & hob, but our motivation for extending the kitchen is that there's not really enough workspace currently, so would be reluctant to lose some to another hob (though I guess some stuff can go on top of the Rayburn when not in use). On the EPC and construction side of things, it's the same problem we often see with EPCs in that the caveat "(assumed)" is used liberally, so we've no idea whether to have any faith in it:

Feature Description Rating
Wall Cavity wall, as built, no insulation (assumed) Poor
Wall Cavity wall, as built, insulated (assumed) Good
Roof Pitched, 300 mm loft insulation Very good
Roof Pitched, insulated (assumed) Very good
Floor Suspended, no insulation (assumed) N/A
Floor To unheated space, insulated (assumed) N/A
Floor Solid, insulated (assumed) N/A
Window Fully double glazed Poor
Main heating Boiler and radiators, mains gas Good
Main heating control Programmer, room thermostat and TRVs Good
Hot water From main system Good

I'm just guessing that the insulated cavity wall (assumed) will relate to the modern extension, and the the 'no insulation' part will be the original walls. I suppose the assumption is really just over the insulation rather than the aspect of it being a cavity wall, and sure enough I've just spotted a line saying "Cavity fill is recommended" - I just wonder why that wouldn't have been done already? It does look like a stretcher bond btw (no rendering), but I neglected to measure the depth of the window reveals on both floors.

I reckon some of our first priorities (unless a survey says otherwise) would be to get the cavity wall insulation done, maybe floor insulation too if feasible, and also get some repointing done. I understand it's important to use lime mortar instead of cement to avoid introducing damp issues, and similarly we'd need to find someone who knows what they're doing to do the insulation, avoiding potential condensation, thermal bridging or whatever (maybe also to assess the DPC). All of which makes me think we'd better leave a fairly generous budget for these things. Not sure if there are lead pipes to worry about too, but on the plus side, it has at least been re-roofed and rewired, albeit about 20 years ago when the extension was done.

They have to make assumptions about the insulation because it's a non invasive survey for the EPC. If the cavity has been filled though there's normally filled drill holes visible in the wall, or the owner may have the paperwork.
Opinions vary a lot on CWI, so it's difficult to get advice. I know people who've got it done and are really happy with it. There are others who have had to get it removed because of damp issues.

 

[Stevers]

There's more than one way of retro-fitting CWI. My parents and sister had the polystyrene bead type and that was very successful (dramatically so) with no signs of any damp bridging. It's the blown mineral fibre insulation method that appears to be problematic with both settling and damp bridging reported. Expanding foam is also used and I'd be nervous about that in terms of damp bridging and problems with getting a consistent fill.

One critiscism of poly beads is that it allows a bit of air movement in the cavity, but I think that should actually be viewed as a positive.

 

[paulc]

Opinions vary a lot on CWI, so it's difficult to get advice. I know people who've got it done and are really happy with it. There are others who have had to get it removed because of damp issues.

Had CWI (mineral fibre) done here at the turn of the century. A waste of money and did nothing to improve energy efficiency. Since having it done, I've discovered that the cavities are only partially filled, and air bricks had been blocked - When this place was built, air bricks did not include any ducting..
Loft insulation, insulated loft hatch, decent double glazing, and a program of draught elimination have done more to improve energy efficiency. Coupled with a new heating system, I've managed to get gas consumption down to around 3,000kWh per year. Not bad for a typical 1920/30 3 bed semi (also have a wood stove to supplement heating during a cold evening).

 

[Stevers]

When this place was built, air bricks did not include any ducting..

The air bricks on my parents' house were all replaced and ducted as part of the works which were under some sort of government scheme - an absolutely vital step!

 

[montyjohn]

We're getting rid of our oil Rayburn. It's not for us.
We couldn't get enough heat out of it to heat our radiators.
Now we have a proper oil boiler fitted life is a lot better.

It's also the lack of control.
And then what to do about hot water in the summer.

How old is this house you are buying?
I'm worried that you are worried about replacing a Raybun and a very small crack.
I guarantee the house has much bigger surprises for you if it's old.

If these minor items put you off then make sure a period property is for you.

 

[larches]

How old is this house you are buying?
I'm worried that you are worried about replacing a Raybun and a very small crack.
I guarantee the house has much bigger surprises for you if it's old.

If these minor items put you off then make sure a period property is for you.

Well, funnily enough the same thought occurred to me - we're fussing over what IS visible & obvious, but who knows what lies beneath, and yes, we're a bit nervous about that. This feels like a brave (or foolish) thing to admit on this particular forum, but we have been tempted by the thought of buying a boring modern box so we don't have the same age-related aspects to worry about (though some of those are pretty flimsy and have their own problems). Anyway, the fact is that the housing stock in our target area is overwhelmingly 30s semis like this one, so we don't have a lot of choice, and if other folk can manage with them then so can we - just keen to make sure we go in with our eyes open.

We don't know the exact age btw - of all many houses we've viewed, it seems very rare that anyone can tell us when the property was built, or who built it (and seems weirdly difficult to find out from public records, even with estates from a few decades ago).

 

[paulc]

We don't know the exact age btw - of all many houses we've viewed, it seems very rare that anyone can tell us when the property was built, or who built it (and seems weirdly difficult to find out from public records, even with estates from a few decades ago).

A couple of resources that can help to pin down the approximate date:
Maps: https://maps.nls.uk/os/ and https://www.oldmapsonline.org/en/England
Aerial photographs: https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/ and https://www.cambridgeairphotos.com/