16th century timber frame survey problems…

[k8_jose]

Hiya,
We just got the report back from the heritage building surveyor the local timber framer recommended and it’s showing up the long list of issues we expected…
We’re now struggling with trying to work out how long we’d have till we have to address each issue, and what kind of ballpark we’re looking at having to budget for the do it all if we can spread it out.
We absolutely love it but don’t want to end up half way through and not being able to cover it / we know it will be high, but don’t know how high and over how long!
Any guesses on this list much appreciated

 

[Nsar1]

I'm not qualified to give you even ballpark numbers. I think though the important question is how do you (and your partner if there is one) generally tend to respond to stress and uncertainty? It's more than just the cost of the work at stake.

 

[a twig]

Unless your financial situation has improved from your first posts regarding this house I stand by my initial advice - “RUN”.

Anything that is allowing water ingress will cause the property to continue to deteriorate - so for me D2, D3, D5 and D8 would be the priority - but you’d have to accept that some parts of those might have to be re-done again in the future as you uncover more issues and have to repair / replace things around or below them.

For me, E3 plus the reference to a rotted corner post in the narrative have alarm bells as they will definitely turn out to be worse once coverings / finishes / renders are removed.

On the plus side E7 and E8 can be easily mitigated (fix the leaks and remove and dispose of the skirting)

 

[k8_jose]

I'm not qualified to give you even ballpark numbers. I think though the important question is how do you (and your partner if there is one) generally tend to respond to stress and uncertainty? It's more than just the cost of the work at stake.

I think we can handle that pretty well. This wouldn’t be the first renovation we’ve done, but would be the first on this scale!

 

[Flyfisher]

I think though the important question is how do you (and your partner if there is one) generally tend to respond to stress and uncertainty? It's more than just the cost of the work at stake.

I think that is such an important point and one that is often overlooked. There's little doubt that pretty much anything wrong with a house (of any age or type) can be fixed but the extent of any problem and the cost of fixing it are almost always unknowns until work begins and the true extent of the required repairs are revealed.

When I took on our c16 timber frame house, the thing I was certain about was its very poor condition that had degenerated over the past 20-30 years or so. Even I could spot that the strategically placed buckets in a couple of the bedrooms to catch rainwater was a bit of a clue

In my favour was that I had just retired, had no mortgage and the move would release a fair bit of equity from our previous house. I also considered myself 'a bit handy' as far as DIY was concerned, though I confess that I've learned far more from this project than I ever knew before, and was prepared to get 'stuck in' to most things. Basically, I was fortunate to have the time and money to spend on what we planned would be the 'forever house', so there was no particular urgency to get things done. Personally, it was these factors that made up our minds to take it on.

I am in complete awe of people who take on similar projects while working full-time and/or bringing up a family and/or living in a caravan and/or having a huge mortgage costing a large chunk of their income, and all while the restoration work progresses. I could not have coped with any of that and I take my hat off to those who can , and indeed have done!

 

[Nsar1]

I think we can handle that pretty well. This wouldn’t be the first renovation we’ve done, but would be the first on this scale!

Good luck!

 

[Alex_]

well having bought a late 17th century timber framed house a few months back which was identified as having a partially rotted 1m section of sole plate and 'small areas of damp' coming through the cement render (inside and out) amongst other issues, I would say assume the damage to the frame is considerably worse than a surveyor can see and repairing the frame and putting in breathable render and insulation will cost about 2.5-3k per m2, and that's before you get to the other issues you describe. Oh and the cost will go up the more render they take off and find what looked in good nick isn't...
Use the survey to negotiate as big a discount as you can...

 

[k8_jose]

well having bought a late 17th century timber framed house a few months back which was identified as having a partially rotted 1m section of sole plate and 'small areas of damp' coming through the cement render (inside and out) amongst other issues, I would say assume the damage to the frame is considerably worse than a surveyor can see and repairing the frame and putting in breathable render and insulation will cost about 2.5-3k per m2, and that's before you get to the other issues you describe. Oh and the cost will go up the more render they take off and find what looked in good nick isn't...
Use the survey to negotiate as big a discount as you can...

That’s really helpful thanks. We’ll have about £80-100k on hand to address immediate issues, but would need to wait a good 5-10 years to borrow a chunk more. So trying to work out if that’s viable or if we’d be a crumbling pile of dust by then!

 

[Kearn]

Way too many unknowns - but don’t underestimate how fast £100k can be spent.

All full speed mid project, our monthly run rate was over £30k - labour, insurance, rental, scaffold. That’s excluding materials and skips. And we’ve spent a LOT on oak, lime, woodwool boards, tiles, bricks, stone, windows….
Once you scratch the surface of a timber framed home that’s got visible deterioration and had poor choices made in the past, expect the actual situation to be multiples worse. Repairing a timber frame impacts everything around it.
Financially, assuming you get a realistic purchase price, budget for spending the up to the same again.

It’s not a wonderfully worded report, yes the glass is half empty as always, but there’s very little detail contained that would give me confidence that this surveyor is experienced with old timber framed buildings. Lots of copyaste and repetition rather than actual details of issues, causes, repair approaches. Speak to them and push them harder - they should be able to answer most of the questions your asking here, they’ve had hands and eyes in and you’ve paid them handsomely to do a job for you.

 

[LadyArowana]

That’s really helpful thanks. We’ll have about £80-100k on hand to address immediate issues, but would need to wait a good 5-10 years to borrow a chunk more. So trying to work out if that’s viable or if we’d be a crumbling pile of dust by then!

I have no experience of timber frames, but we did renovate our Georgian G2, and that needed a new roof, which didn’t cover a huge area. To me the roof is a priority because rain happens and gravity is a thing. Based on that and the other issues listed I think £ 80 - £100k is not enough.

 

[jamest]

How big is the place? Surely that's the elephant in the room question. Maybe it's in an earlier thread. Anyway, I'll add a couple of observations from my own experience of living in decaying old timber-framed properties and visiting a bunch of others.

First off, it's surprising to me how long these places keep on standing despite inappropriate materials and repairs including cement renders and plasters, waterproof sealants and bituminous paints. Here in Warwickshire there are a lot of timber framed cottages, but you'll be hard put to find one with an intact sole plate or indeed any sole plate at all. In my previous place, there was no sole plate left and three of the four corner posts were completely gone at ground floor level. Over the years previous owners had simply replaced the rotten timbers with brick, so the external ground floor walls were gradually being converted into brick only structures, only one brick (4") thick. There was no sign of movement, settlement or anything and it had been like that for decades. In my current house, this same process is further advanced - although the frame is almost completely intact at first floor level (including many wattle and daub panels), there is very little left of it in the ground floor external walls, which are almost entirely brick (only the corner posts remain and two other intermediate posts). The house now resembles one of those 17th century buildings you see in Kent with a completely brick ground floor with timber frame on top. Peter Ward's videos on Youtube are worth a look - places in terrible condition that have been happily standing in much the same way for decades. Of course, if your house is listed, you're unlikely to get away with replacing rotten timbers with bricks, but it's probably not going to fall down for a long, long time.

Second, provided you get the roof fixed, get the ground levels down (if needed), strip any waterproof paints off the plinth, use breathable materials on the interior side of the external walls, fill up any cracks in the external render and sort out any other sources of damp, things aren't likely to get much worse over the medium term (a decade or so) - so you've probably got plenty of time to save up to do any timber frame repairs properly. If you do love the place, then it deserves to be properly repaired/restored.

I guess I'm saying that it might be doable given your constraints and that what these places need is for people to sort them out properly, however long that takes - it's a labour of love. If you have the love and the labour, why not? If you don't, who will?

 

[k8_jose]

Thanks so much James - thats really helpful input. Its quite a big house - 5 bedroom - and listed, but the timber frame has been replaced with bricks just as you describe on the entire west side and bottom half of rear. So its the front and east elevation that are the cuplrits for possible rott/money pits.

We've spoken to a really great conservation timber framer locally who said similar to you - that it wont fall down, and if your happy to chip away long term you can. He was the one who recommended the surveyor who specialised in old buildings. But we keep getting stuck at the 'how long have we got till we need to find a big chunk of money' question, as we know we cant really touch the render and frame till then as our £80-100k wouldnt cover it, and we need to address the windows and roof maybe more urgently...

We do love it, and think we have the labor in us, but just not sure about if the house has the time!

 

[mardinor]

Just wanted to comment that naive passion is underappreciated. Rational analysis has its place, such as an investment property or quick flip. But if it’s a home you intend to live in, let your heart rule.
Our solicitor told us ‘don’t buy this house unless you intend to lay your bones there’. So we did and we will. Best decision we made, 25 years ago.

 

[Flyfisher]

Just wanted to comment that naive passion is underappreciated. Rational analysis has its place, such as an investment property or quick flip. But if it’s a home you intend to live in, let your heart rule.
Our solicitor told us ‘don’t buy this house unless you intend to lay your bones there’.

I know someone who literally did just that, and I'm planning to follow suit when the time comes.

 

[k8_jose]

Way too many unknowns - but don’t underestimate how fast £100k can be spent.

All full speed mid project, our monthly run rate was over £30k - labour, insurance, rental, scaffold. That’s excluding materials and skips. And we’ve spent a LOT on oak, lime, woodwool boards, tiles, bricks, stone, windows….
Once you scratch the surface of a timber framed home that’s got visible deterioration and had poor choices made in the past, expect the actual situation to be multiples worse. Repairing a timber frame impacts everything around it.
Financially, assuming you get a realistic purchase price, budget for spending the up to the same again.

It’s not a wonderfully worded report, yes the glass is half empty as always, but there’s very little detail contained that would give me confidence that this surveyor is experienced with old timber framed buildings. Lots of copyaste and repetition rather than actual details of issues, causes, repair approaches. Speak to them and push them harder - they should be able to answer most of the questions your asking here, they’ve had hands and eyes in and you’ve paid them handsomely to do a job for you.

Sorry, this was just part of the summary. The report is actually many many pages with lots of detail and accompanying photos. Hes a really experienced with old timber frame buildings - was recommended by a brilliant timber framer locally and would recommend him if anyone in Suffolk needs a survey, He’s now given more advise on timing off record, and seems roof is first priority followed by windows slowly. The frame will stay standing for a good 10 years at least till we get more money to start digging into that. So more hopeful

 

[Kearn]

Sorry, this was just part of the summary. The report is actually many many pages with lots of detail and accompanying photos. Hes a really experienced with old timber frame buildings - was recommended by a brilliant timber framer locally and would recommend him if anyone in Suffolk needs a survey, He’s now given more advise on timing off record, and seems roof is first priority followed by windows slowly. The frame will stay standing for a good 10 years at least till we get more money to start digging into that. So more hopeful

Did you survey with them? Best thing to do, walk, poke and learn!

Frames do indeed stay up remarkably long when physics say otherwise… never underestimate the power of cobwebs!

However, once you do start, it’s basically all or nothing There’s little you can light touch repair. Of course you can isolate areas, but depending on the house, logistics, family etc… it’s often more efficient to just do it all. Once the house is a building site and you’ve moved out, do as much as you can before moving back in. There’s no fun living in half a house, I can attest to that right now! And the making good after frame repairs is often as much effort as the frame itself.
However, all the unknowns and nasty surprises, even if nothing major, add up timewise and financially. And there’s always a point of no return where things get very uncomfortable if you’re not able to navigate through.

As any carpenter will tell you, you never know the true state of timber until you can investigate all four faces!

Do you have a link to the property?