So, wondered if anyone has some input into the following issue - it has been proposed that the unfortunate concrete render in the lightwell of the grade 1 listed regency terraced building my flat is situated in should be painted - with regular dulux type white paint. I am concerned that painting aging, deteriorating concrete render, already inappropriate on top of regency brick, particularly when adjoining interior walls are largely bungaroosh, will cause damp issues. There are already damp issues in the building, including dry and wet rot, and the concrete render has visible cracks in it. There is no sun in the lightwell bar the very top floor as it is very deep, and the rain lashes in as it is right by the sea, so it is already a very damp environment. I am opposed to painting it, as several contractors have stated it is likely to lead to damp and deterioration of the render, but there is a push for painting from many flat owners as they are more concerned with brightening up the lightwell and trying to maximise light. They insist that painting the concrete render would prevent damp and protect the concrete render, whereas the contractors I spoke to said it could lead to the render blowing and trap water in the render cracks. Removing render is not an option as it is a large, deep and complicated space and the cost would be prohibitive. Is painting this lightwell going to cause future issues or am I worried about nothing?
- Thread starter KitM
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Why not use a water permeable paint? Cement render is not impermeable (permeability depends on the mix), but putting plastic masonry paint on it will certainly make it much less so. If the purpose is to brighten it up, why not use limewash? Ingilby Paints pozilime exterior limewash is great stuff in my experience - it will adhere well to cement, doesn't usually need more than a couple of coats and is relatively inexpensive. What's not to like?
Hi, thanks so much for your input. It is a really big double building and tge lightwell is huge, 6 stories deep and very complicated to paint with jutting walkways etc. aAny breathable paint we looked at was ruled prohibitively expensive. It has never been painted so would require several
Coats I would imagine. It is an extremely expensive job already as there is no door and scaffolding alone has quotes of up to £45,000 as the access is so awkward
Stevers
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Quibbling over the cost of paint when spending £45,000 on scaffolding - wow! Surely though, if you're coughing up that sort of money for scaffolding, you might as well do the job properly with lime render and limewash or equivalent. Blowing that sort of money to damage the existing fabric with plastic paint is madness. It would also be sensible to organise better access to the foot of the lightwell so that any future maintenance will be easier and less expensive.
Doing nothing is a better option, especially if you were to set aside the money required to paint it so that you could do a proper job later perhaps when access is improved.
Doing nothing is a better option, especially if you were to set aside the money required to paint it so that you could do a proper job later perhaps when access is improved.
I would prefer to leave it be, but just wondering how bad problems are likely to be if regilar paint is used? breathable paint wd Unfortunately be an unsustainable cost to maintain over the years as we are none of us rich people, and once painted it wd require repainting periodically
Crazy isn't it. There seems to be no limit to what people will spend on high end interiors, new kitchens and bathrooms etc, but the same people are often looking to cut corners on exterior maintenance.
Complete false economy to cover it in non breathable plastic paint. We are 10 metres from the sea, so similar issues with climate. I am currently spending countless hours removing old plastic paint from the rendered seaward side of the building. The trapped moisture behind the paint causes it to blister and flake, then it attracts dirt and generally looks shabby.
One neighbour has had very good results with mineral paint, it is lasting well. We are using this too, so fingers crossed. It is very expensive on paper but insignificant compared to the man hours put in and the expected longevity.
Another neighbour that is divided into 3 flats had their building painted 5 years ago in standard masonry paint. It needed doing again this year - £20k. It will need doing again in 5 years.
Buildings with shared maintenance responsibilities like this are on my avoid list for future house purchases.
The short term problem will be looking crap fairly quickly and then being in the cycle of repeating the mistake for cosmetic reasons.
I think the real problems take long enough to manifest that people either aren't around to see the damage or dismiss the paint as the cause as it was done so long ago. The damage I have oberserved to our building:
- stone deteriorating and crumbling
- walls holding enough moisture to be cold and to damage wooden lintels
- salts coming through internally and blowing off interior paint
- areas of cracked render going unnoticed that then allow more serious water ingress and damage soft mortars behind the render
fernicarry
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A house very close to me has just been painted for the second time in 3 years both times with commodity masonry paint. The green algae came back about 6 months after the first time, a sure sign that the wall was wet and staying wet despite getting the sun for a good part of the day. The owners at the time said they weren't interested in stripping off the old paint completely because then they'd have to repair the pointing
.
People seem to endow paint with almost magical properties. Ask them how they expect a paint film a fraction of a millimeter thick to form a completely unbroken waterproof seal across the whole surface of the building?
. People seem to endow paint with almost magical properties. Ask them how they expect a paint film a fraction of a millimeter thick to form a completely unbroken waterproof seal across the whole surface of the building?
Flyfisher
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Firstly, who has proposed this work and what experience have they got to make such a decision?
Secondly, as this is a Grade 1 listed property (only about 2.5% of English listed buildings are Grade 1, so exceptionally important) , has anyone been in contact with the relevant CO at the local council? a) to check if this work will require listed building consent and b) to check if it would be granted permission to use a modern plastic paint (I doubt it!).
Thirdly, £45k is an awful lot of money to spend on painting anything and the cost of the paint itself will be lost in the 'noise' of the quotation, so there should be no hesitation to 'do it once and do it right'. I would also ask the contractor for some sort of guarantee for their work as well as references from other similar jobs so you can see the results.
Yeah, when I said 5 years I was being very generous. It was more like 1 and then they put it off for another 4.
In my limited experience, and this must be hugely variable across local authorities, the protection of listed buildings is sadly lacking for a variety of reasons.
I'm going to guess it is very similar to Brunswick Square in Brighton, that is grade 1 listed. There are Brunswick estate repainting specifications on the Brighton and Hove council website that actually mandate the use of 'Sandtex Classic Stone Gloss – Hove Cream'. All they care about is maintaining the colour scheme and are actually insisting on the use of this rubbish...
Brunswick Estate Repainting Specification 2020/2021
Paint specification and requirements for the 5-yearly repainting of the Brunswick Estate
Cubist
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Can I ask a few really dumb questions of the OP please? Given the purpose of a 'light-well' I can appreciate why the inhabitants feel that painting its walls will enhance both the general appearance and perhaps enhance the levels of ambient light but.....
- Is this space frequently used by the inhabitants and for how long each day might it be occupied?
- What is the anticipated net gain in improved natural lightening and for how long each day?
- is the light-well form a part of the exit and entry routes to the building and therefore frequently used?
Thanks so much for your reply. It is a deep dark lightwell which is untouched by the sun apart from the very top floor pretty much, and consequently very damp too. The ground floor walkway that crosses it has continual damp issues, and there are also several flats with damp issues due to.cracjs in tge render. Tge lightwell is unused as there is no door to it, and it can only be accessed by climbing out of a window at basement level. It is also deep dark and not a place to linger, Approx 5 floors deep and probably approx 85+ windows opening off it. Light further compromised by walkways crossing at ground and second floor levels. It is ugly, and the concrete render is unattractive. However paint does not create light and I fear painting the render could cause deterioration of the concrete render risking further cracjs, trapped moisture, dampness and blown render. Plus after very few years a mucky looking painted mess as there are so many pipes, metalwork etc, and already lots of rust marks and green patches
Cubist
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Thank you for this information. The huge expenditure of time, effort, resources and money suggested to merely 'paint' the walls is, in my opinion, nothing but a criminal waste. Much of the damp problem in the fabric of the building on will be due to moisture accumulation from 'indoors' and directly due to human activities and behaviours. Some small amount may be arising from rainwater deposit or even rising damp from the earth below but, unless something is done to improve airflow at the ground level and above within this light-well then it will continue to be a trap for moisture to induce decay and failure of the building.
In your shoes I would take a long hard look at who is promoting this idea to the tenants and why they think a lick of paint will have any real and lasting beneficial effects. In my view its potentially dangerous nonsense.
In your shoes I would take a long hard look at who is promoting this idea to the tenants and why they think a lick of paint will have any real and lasting beneficial effects. In my view its potentially dangerous nonsense.
Thank you for your input. Some residents are keen to ‘improve light levels’ and make outside their windows look brighter. I worry that proposed painting will cause damage to the fabric of the building by trapping damp in or behind tge render.
Cubist
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I can only suggest now that you refer to the building and this proposed project as the Miss Piggy Make Over.
Flyfisher
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The residents' intentions seem perfectly reasonable on the face of it, but they may not fully understand the implications of the proposed solution. Presumably there is some sort of residents committee and/or management company that will ultimately be responsible for any actual works, so it sounds to me as if this is the early stage of trying to address some residents' concerns. Perhaps when the risks and costs involved in the proposed works (including the postential later repair costs) have been more widely discussed and everyone has a better understanding, then minds might be changed. Whatever is decided, I'd suggest it is clearly documented/minuted for future reference. I can't imagine the residents being too pleased to be asked for another £45k (probably more!) in a few years time!
Unfortunately some the residents in favour of painting are insisting that paint is necessary maintenance in order to protect the fabric of the building, and are not willing to countenance the fact that it may have a detrimental effect, and refute contractors and managing agent opinion that it would not be wise. A couple wish to sell up so are possibly pursuing it for short term gain, potentially leaving the rest of us with a mill stone