Damp & Timber Specialist Reports for Mortgage Lender

[Athers1971]

So, our attempted purchase of our 300 or so year old Grade 2 listed house is going very slowly and hitting snags

Our mortgage lender had a valuation of the property completed (an actual inspection, not just a desktop or drive by) and the valuer has been unable to provide a valuation figure and therefore confirm the property suitable as security.

Valuer has marked the property as unsuitable security & not readily saleable with the following comments -There is damp to the walls, and chimney breasts and signs of wood boring insects to a number of the exposed timber, beams and lintels. A report on the whole property, including loft space and sub floors, is required from a Property Care Association damp and timber specialist, with all required work to be carried out to Property Care Association standards. Given the age of the property and its Grade 2 Listed status, no valuation can be provided until I have seen the requested reports.

We have commissioned a damp and timber report from a local PCA member as this was the only way to proceed with our lender, we have received this report today. The timber report is as expected, with a quote of £2,800+VAT to treat all internal timbers for..

active infestations of wood boring beetle in the form of common furniture beetle to numerous oak lintels, floor beams, to ground floor rooms also wall panels and floor boarding as well as floor beams and lintels to 1 st floor rooms.

The damp report is a little more controversial. The Specialist has made a comment that chemical injection DPC are not permitted (?) in listed properties. His observation was as follows:

On our recent inspection, I was able to establish high levels of moisture to those walls identified on the supporting ground floor plan. Levels and profiles of moisture in this instance indicate that those walls are affected by rising dampness, our recommendations follow accordingly:

And recommended remedial measures:

Due to the levels and heights of moisture rise to those ground floor walls affected by rising dampness as defined on the supporting ground floor plan, internally, remove the internal wall plaster full height from floor to ceiling and remove waste from site. Re-plaster internally using a 8mm dimpled plaster membrane fixed to the walls with in the mortar beds using mechanical cob plugs, the membrane should terminate slightly below the solid floor to enable any residual moisture to naturally seep to ground. Once the membrane has been completed plaster over the membrane with hardwall backing plaster and hardwall skim.

The quote for the remedial works is £22,390 + VAT for re-plastering as defined above. This is basically for every wall on the ground floor which has 2/3 reception rooms, kitchen and utility.

So, we sending these onto the mortgage lender to see if we can get the mortgage sorted, but I am concerned about the suggested solution in respect of the damp.

Also, he was unable to do anything with the floors:

Internal ground floors are of a solid construction with either tile or laminate floor covering, 2 of the floors have been overlaid with chipboard timber decking board on timber battens. Unfortunately moisture profiling of the floors could not be undertaken and as such we cannot report further.

Any thoughts on our situation? Should we get a second damp report now, or wait until we have actually bought it? I'm a little worried that the mortgage lender will force us to do some works that aren't in the best interest of the property.

Thank you.

 

[88v8]

It's nice to be a cash buyer, as we were. One can ignore the doomsayers and just plough on.

The suggested 'damp proofing' is a methodology commonly used in cellars, where there is damp but not too much damp. Our cellar for instance, done for the PO about 15 years ago and no problems. That I can see. Yet.

If the membrane is to terminate below ground at the bottom, that implies taking the perimeter of all the floors up. Alternatively, there could be a small air gap at the top of the lining/plaster, and a small air gap left at the bottom so there is a through-flow of air up the wall. In this case any damp will dissipate internally, which will be OK provided that all affected rooms have good ventilation such as an open fireplace.
Better for the wall as the damp is not trapped.

The internal plaster should be lime, which helps with 'breathing' any internal damp. In a healthy 300yo house there is often a degree of internal damp due to the absence of dpc and dpm. I would not accept hardwall plaster.

However, why are the walls 'damp'. High external ground levels?
And btw, is it actually cob? Or is he just referring to the generic plastic prongy things?

Leaving all this aside, as a starting point the floors need looking at. If they are concrete with a dpm, that could be why the walls are damp. Classically, with a dpm, the damp is sent sideways into the walls.

The cure for that is limecrete floors, then the walls will dry out naturally.
That said, if the walls are plastered in gypsum, that should come off regardless and be redone in lime.

Unless the floors are eliminated from culpability, one might well be tackling the symptoms, without addressing the cause.
So, do the owners know what is under the floors?

And are you really dead set on this house?
And do you really need a lender?

Sympathy....

Ivor

 

[Athers1971]

Thanks for the sympathy Ivor.

Having done some further research (looking back on other posts in the forum) I think we made a mistake appointing the firm we did. They are clearly a PCA registered contractor who have provided a solution that they themselves provide. We should have appointed a PCA registered independent surveyor. That maybe our next port of call, depending on what the mortgage company say.

Some of the damp is clearly from the chimney breast and the window reveals. We don't think there is any gypsum but the fireplace in the main living room has been blocked up reducing ventilation. We can deal with the windows and rainwater goods and chimneys but yy concern is what the floors will reveal (that we can't see) and that we clearly will not be able to diagnose this until we have purchased it.

We definitely wanted to use lime for the internal plaster that needed replacing either due to damp or due to damage from a full re-wire.

The 'cob' plugs are just Oldroyd Plaster Plugs like https://www.safeguardeurope.com/products/cavity-drainage/oldroyd-xp-plaster-membrane

Any idea how much a new limecrete floor would be for a 12ft x 12ft room say?

We defintely need a lender and we are/were set on the house, just trying to look for a plan B solution shows that there is not much onthe market near us that would match this completed project.

We should hear back from the mortgage company any day..

 

[paulc]

Being a G2 listed building, would the local conservation officer allow for the removal of all the plaster on the ground floor ?

The more I see of the PCA, the work that they do, and the amount of damage done to old buildings by their contractors, the more convinced I become that they are little more than a franchised con.

 

[malcolm]

Typically the best long term approach to damp is to allow the walls to breath to the outside so the water can evaporate. So no waterproof coatings like cement or masonry paint on the outside. It's well worth a good read through this forum as the approaches people take on here are generally very sensible. Peter Ward (historic building surveyor) on YouTube is worth a watch too.

Excess water ingress can be caused by the ground levels outside being the same or higher than on the inside, leaky gutters, leaky drains. It's good to fix these things so the rate of water evaporating away is higher than the rate water gets in and things become dry.

The PCA will try to waterproof things even more rather than fix the problems and allow the wall to dry through evaporation. If you waterproof a wall and allow no place for the water getting in to evaporate away you'll end up with a very wet wall. It will be cold and after 30 years you'll be battling with damp on the upper floors as there will be more water getting in than can escape and it's got to go somewhere.

If the mortgage company insists on damp companies rather than historic building specialists who will help resolve rather than try to hide the issues, then maybe the only option is to find another mortgage company. Or a proper survey from someone experienced in old houses that gives some guidance on the way forwards.

 

[Flyfisher]

Being a G2 listed building, would the local conservation officer allow for the removal of all the plaster on the ground floor ?

That's a good question.

I'd suggest contacting the relevant CO, if possible. Our CO came out two or three times before we even took on our house and was a great source of help and advice about the extensive works needed, plus it was reassuring to know he was basically supportive of our plans. But I know COs vary across the country and the more I hear about them the more I think we won the lottery with ours (based on the past 14 years and four successful LBC applications!).

I've also read (probably on here somewhere) that COs can sometimes provide suopporting letters to mortgage companies, eg to highlight that 'damp' or a few beetles do not always deserve the panic that many mortgage companies seem to think, especially if it can help avoid potentially ruinous 'remedial' works.

No guarantees, of course, but it must surely be worth a try - you'll need to deal with them eventually anyway so why not try sooner rather than later?

 

[a twig]

I would find a different mortgage lender - ours was in a similar state to yours (other than the listing) by the sounds of it and they lent us the cash no problem

 

[MatthewC]

I'd suggest contacting the relevant CO, if possible. Our CO came out two or three times before we even took on our house and was a great source of help and advice about the extensive works needed, plus it was reassuring to know he was basically supportive of our plans. But I know COs vary across the country and the more I hear about them the more I think we won the lottery with ours (based on the past 14 years and four successful LBC applications!).

"Won the lottery"? I've just sat here for a few minutes trying to think of a converse metaphor for the one we had, who was a continuous source of difficulty for us, was certainly the very opposite of "basically supportive of our plans" and never visited us once.

The worst happening was where we wanted to replace the existing (but falling down) Victorian extension with something a bit larger. After the first application was refused, my wife and our architect thought it would be a good idea to ask for a meeting with the CO, who then basically drew a sketch of what could get approved. So the architect drew up plans accordingly and submitted the application. Guess what? - it was refused.

If you "won the lottery", I think at best we might have had a £10 consolation: I learned quickly and did some things that would have been possibly contentious but the CO had no idea about them because of not visiting!

 

[LadyArowana]

"Won the lottery"? I've just sat here for a few minutes trying to think of a converse metaphor for the one we had, who was a continuous source of difficulty for us, was certainly the very opposite of "basically supportive of our plans" and never visited us once.

The worst happening was where we wanted to replace the existing (but falling down) Victorian extension with something a bit larger. After the first application was refused, my wife and our architect thought it would be a good idea to ask for a meeting with the CO, who then basically drew a sketch of what could get approved. So the architect drew up plans accordingly and submitted the application. Guess what? - it was refused.

If you "won the lottery", I think at best we might have had a £10 consolation: I learned quickly and did some things that would have been possibly contentious but the CO had no idea about them because of not visiting!

Did you appeal? Recent events have made me think that if one was refused it would be worth an appeal. We are contemplating the last phase of our big work which is more contentious that the first - which went through with only one tiny adjustment made after the pre-app meeting. A planning application nearby was refused on multiple valid, I thought, grounds. Was appealed, without any significant adjustments to plans, and was allowed by the reviewer. This is the second time in our area I am aware of things being denied and denial subsequently overruled on appeal.

 

[Flyfisher]

Such tales only reinforce my feeling that we've been very fortunate indeed with our CO. He really has been exemplary; readily accessible for advice, willing to visit when necessary (I've lost count of how many times he has visited to help define and agree things) and even willing to argue my/his case with English Heritage (we are G2* so EH have to agree, or at least not object, to each LBC application). Where he hasn't been keen on my ideas he has always suggested an alternative option, which have usually been better than mine! Hardly surprising I suppose, given that he's the expert in such matters, but it's indicative of how effective this whole listing business can be with the right people and attitudes in place.

I live in fear of his retirement! :lol:

Milady's comment about appealing a refused LBC application is certainly valid, though I wonder how it would work in practice? In my experience, the CO is the 'designated expert' for the relevant council so I wonder who would adjudicate an appeal when, presumably, no one else in the planning office would be qualified to overturn the CO's decision.

 

[LadyArowana]

Milady's comment about appealing a refused LBC application is certainly valid, though I wonder how it would work in practice? In my experience, the CO is the 'designated expert' for the relevant council so I wonder who would adjudicate an appeal when, presumably, no one else in the planning office would be qualified to overturn the CO's decision.

The recent case I’m aware of it was someone appointed by the secretary of state, I assume by this they meant his department, who held a public enquiry, where all the council and others concerns counted for nothing. The person appointed was from Edinburgh - over 300 miles away! The other case was some time ago and the appointed person turned up, had a brief look at the listed property and those around, reviewed the plans and said OK. My builder was scheduled to do the work and was fearful that our CO was the same one as she was very very unhappy to have her decision overruled, but it wasn’t. Haven’t put in for our problematic one ….. yet

 

[a twig]

This is the second time in our area I am aware of things being denied and denial subsequently overruled on appeal.

Definitely nothing to do with the fact that the powers that be in your area don’t have the funds to do anything remotely like a legal defence at present…

 

[LadyArowana]

This is the second time in our area I am aware of things being denied and denial subsequently overruled on appeal.

Definitely nothing to do with the fact that the powers that be in your area don’t have the funds to do anything remotely like a legal defence at present…

I don’t think that was a factor, one case was ages ago and the recent one I was more inclined to think that the guy who was appointed to do the public enquiry was preparing his road into a more lucrative job in the private sector by showing how he could prepare a report justifying a horrendous development.

 

[MatthewC]

Milady's comment about appealing a refused LBC application is certainly valid, though I wonder how it would work in practice? In my experience, the CO is the 'designated expert' for the relevant council so I wonder who would adjudicate an appeal when, presumably, no one else in the planning office would be qualified to overturn the CO's decision.

I didn't appeal as I see no point in arguing with someone so illogical. I now just have a smaller extension than we wanted.

Don't forget, the CO doesn't make a "decision", but rather a "recommendation" to the Planning Officer (for delegated decisions). Of course, in most cases they will just go along with the CO who is indeed seen as the expert but I did detect in a couple of things that they had simply ignored what was said by the CO. I did learn quickly and so ignored a condition or two that were meaningless, such as "The property may not be occupied until the driveway with turning space has been completed" - but it had already been lived in for 150 years! Can they stop me?

That CO has now departed. Happily it's now all so long ago, but where have the last 11 years gone?

 

[88v8]

Any idea how much a new limecrete floor would be for a 12ft x 12ft room say?

Ours was done ten years ago, iirc it was about £10,000 for a room 12' x 15'.
I might have been able to get it done cheaper, but I didn't have time to look, as it was an unplanned job done in a short time window before we moved in.
It was lime over LECA, and included breaking out the 70s concrete floor and some excavation to get the requisite depth, or as much depth as we could, given the absence of any proper foundations.
The stone paving was extra.

It may be cheaper nowadays, as limecrete is not so esoteric. If you look for lime suppliers near your house, ask them for the names of contractors that do limecrete work, and start phoning....

In general, I would be very suspicious of any solid-floored house C18 or older that has fitted carpets or other modern impervious flooring, or more specifically suspicious of what has been done to the floor to make that possible.

Ivor

 

[Athers1971]

Well some good news (I think) in that our mortgage lender, or their valuer actually, has knocked the costs of the timber and damp works off the the purchase price to arrive at his valuation. No retention or onerous conditions, we can have the works done by whomever we want and however we want.

We can still borrow the amount we need and so the lower ‘value’ doesn’t affect us.

Now we just need our buyer to get happy with the building survey she had done on our 1990 barn conversion! She reinspected Friday survey in hand, just need her to confirm everything is good to go from her side!

It’s been one step backwards and one step forwards so far since we first viewed the property in August, I doubt we’ll complete this side of Christmas now. Not that we’ll be able to move in for 6-12 months!

 

[LadyArowana]

That sounds like good news, fingers crossed for the next forward step