Does anyone know abou building regs re single glazed windows

[inamuddle]

Hello. First time poster here

The building concerned is Grade 2, not starred. We needed to replace the old rotten windows (wood/single glazed). We also decided to update the house (long overdue !). Because we wanted to re jig the internals, the kitchen moved and building regs would only allow this if the new windows also became means of escape windows. All good as they needed to be done anyway. We used a local joinery company well versed in dealing with listed buildings and they liased with both building regs and the listing officer to make sure everyone was happy. Windows again had to be wooden & single glazed per listing officer. We submitted a listing application for the new windows which was granted, so in they went. When we looked for a completion certificate from building regs however ( was on building notice ) they ie building regs as saying we have to have secondary glazing fitted ?? Now this is irritating for several reasons :
a) If they'd said this in the first place, there's some special glass the joinery company could have used which has the same effect as secondary glazing ..... but it's too late now. Apparently the ?? dunno what it's called, is too small or shallow to take the other kind of glass.
b) The windows are means of escape. Having to fiddle about in the middle of a fire with secondary glazing then the windows proper seems a bit silly.
c) This is the main question - as I said the joinery company we used are one of two in the town who are 'known' for dealing with listed buildings. They have an excellent reputation locally. They were shocked to hear of the secondary glazing requirement from building regs. They've installed hundreds of wooden/single glazed in local listed properties and never had building regs come back and insist on secondary glazing. They are, as a favour to me, going to discreetly ask around to see what's changed. They don't think the building regs themselves have changed ( but they're going to double check ) so it could be ( I'm stressing could ) be someone's interpretation.

So does anyone know, if building regs have changed ? If a requirement of listed is wooden/single glazed - can building regs insist on secondary glazing ? or is it just preferred but not mandatory ? I know there's all this energy effeciency/insulation milarky going on with hips and epc's - has this spread to listed buildings ie comply with listing plus stick this on as well ?

 

[Stephen]

As far as I know the Regs have not changed recently. However, different Councils do tend to have slightly different 'takes' on interpreting the Regs. Listed Buildings are not exempt from the regulations that would normally require new windows to meet certain thermalvalues (usually meaning that they have to be double glazed). However, listed buildings can be given special consideration.

In your situation it seems the Council were quite prepared to accept single glazed windows in the first instance and it does indeed seem grossly unfair that they have now decided to not issue the certificate and require additional work. Are you sure that you and your joiner properly understood the Council in the first place - did they happen to mention secondary glazing at any stage? If so, has there been an unfortunate misunderstanding?

If no mention was previously made have you got reasonably good records of what the Council required and/or notes from any meetings, etc.? If so go back to them and remind them that this is a new requirement as all along you thought you had been meeting their requirements and on that basis should be issued with a completion certificate.

What does the CO say?

Without knowing the detail it is difficult to give any definitive advice, but from what you say it does seem the Council are being harsh.

That said the certificate only really becomes important if you try to sell in future.

 

[inamuddle]

In your situation it seems the Council were quite prepared to accept single glazed windows in the first instance and it does indeed seem grossly unfair that they have now decided to not issue the certificate and require additional work. Are you sure that you and your joiner properly understood the Council in the first place - did they happen to mention secondary glazing at any stage? If so, has there been an unfortunate misunderstanding?

If no mention was previously made have you got reasonably good records of what the Council required and/or notes from any meetings, etc.? If so go back to them and remind them that this is a new requirement as all along you thought you had been meeting their requirements and on that basis should be issued with a completion certificate.

What does the CO say?

Without knowing the detail it is difficult to give any definitive advice, but from what you say it does seem the Council are being harsh.

That said the certificate only really becomes important if you try to sell in future.

Thanks Stephen. There was no prior mention of secondary glazing at all, either to me or the joinery company. As for records - there are none ! I had about three conversations with the BRO. At his suggestion I submitted a full buildings regs application which was hand delivered with letter and about six pieces of info he'd asked for. Hearing nothing I rang him a week later to check he'd received it and was told '' yes, it's in my pile here''. He is now saying he never received it. I was taking a wall down ( with his & listing consent ) and though he'd verbally said ''fine'' I was unhappy about the lack of paper-work so wrote to him confirming when the padstones would be exposed & steelwork visable - another BRO came out and inspected this AND THE WINDOWS. This other BRO equally said nothing about the windows needing secondary glazing. My point is I have no paper-work. I've written twice, one of which the BRO said he didn't receive ( but confirmed he had in earlier conversation ) but I've never had anything from them in writing.

The joinery company are at a loss. As said before they've dealt with this guy a thousand times before - this is a new one on them. Having said that, they mentioned the BRO had asked something weird of another of their customers about 4 months back post works done. I don't know if that was a secondary glazing issue or something else. The joinery company have said they'll make discrete enquiries with the CO about this previous customer and myself. I'll call them again this week, I can't hassle them as they're doing me a favour.

I can understand different Council's having different 'takes' on any issue. My problem is we all understood 'our' Council's take on the window thing - either our Council's 'take' has changed, or the individual BRO's 'take' has changed .... and left me up the creek !

 

[inamuddle]

I suppose what it boils down to is this :

Is it a requirement for buildings regs to have secondary glazing or not ? If I have to, I'll comply, no argument. But there's at least the suspicion, in both my mind and the joinery company's mind, that the building regs officier is playing silly beggars. He's never asked for it, much less insisted on it, in previous cases :?:

Something must have changed ! And if it hasn't .......... what's going on ?

 

[Penners]

In my limited experience (which is nothing like Stephen's - he's a professional in such matters), the format usually goes like this:

1. You apply for listed building consent for the changes you want to make.

2. You apply for building regs consent ditto.

3. If the Buiding Inspector requires anything that would not comply with the constraints of the listing, discussion takes place between the CO and the BI. This usually (but not always) results in the BI waiving the difficult regulation.

4. Consents from both are received.

Do you feel that things have gone too far for you to have a reasonable discussion with the BI, and ask whether the secondary glazing rquirement could be waived "as often happens in such cases"?

 

[MdB]

In our building control, you have to supply documents in quadruplicate and one set gets returned with a BC stamp on it. This way everyone knows what they are working to.

 

[Flyfisher]

Er, I hesitate to mention this but I thought the procedure was:

1. Talk to the CO about the proposed works (informal agreement)
2. Apply for LBC for the required changes
3. Obtain consent
4. CO advises that BCO need not be involved
5. Do the work
6. CO checks he's happy with the works.

OK, so I don't have a BCO completion certificate, but why would that be required if I came to sell the house?
I've simply replaced rotten single-glazed windows with new single-glazed windows to exactly the same design, as per the LBC.

 

[inamuddle]

In my limited experience (which is nothing like Stephen's - he's a professional in such matters), the format usually goes like this:

1. You apply for listed building consent for the changes you want to make.
Agreed - did first.

2. You apply for building regs consent ditto.
Building Notice done. Submitted - receipt of notice received. Phone conversation about wall removal - build regs ambigious about whether allowable. Suggested we make full building regs app instead - done - received per phone convo but nothing received to acknowledge. Seems it wasn't 'logged' - has disappeared into the ether.

3. If the Buiding Inspector requires anything that would not comply with the constraints of the listing, discussion takes place between the CO and the BI. This usually (but not always) results in the BI waiving the difficult regulation.
Well presumerably at this point the issue of secondary glazing would have been raised ? Nothing communicated to joinery company or me.

4. Consents from both are received.

Do you feel that things have gone too far for you to have a reasonable discussion with the BI, and ask whether the secondary glazing rquirement could be waived "as often happens in such cases"?

I'm not looking forward to the conversation but I have to have it. And I intend to be very controlled and 'reasonable'. I'm just trying to find out beforehand ( from here & joinery co's off the record chat with the CO ) whether I can dig my heels in or not. Seriously, if it's correct then we've all made a mistake and have to put it right, but all the feedback I've had so far is that this BI is a bit of a mavarick and it may not be the requirement it's being presented as. It's just so hard finding out whether it's mandatory or not.

 

[inamuddle]

OK, so I don't have a BCO completion certificate, but why would that be required if I came to sell the house?I've simply replaced rotten single-glazed windows with new single-glazed windows to exactly the same design, as per the LBC.

But my windows were not 'like for like'. Because they had to be a means of escape, they were slightly altered - they look the same but open differently. So I had to get LBC and BCOs approval.

 

[inamuddle]

In our building control, you have to supply documents in quadruplicate and one set gets returned with a BC stamp on it. This way everyone knows what they are working to.

I'd prefer that. From memory the initial building notice was submitted with fee. Receipt received.

Full building regs application subsequently made by letter. Documents enclosed (requested), all plans, structural engineers report/calcs re wall, window design/spec/measurements/materials. No receipt/acknowledgement of this.

But I know it was received as :
a) I rang up to confirm.
b) The other BCO when he did his site (wall) inspection, was walking round with my structural engineer's report in his hand.

 

[biffvernon]

Now that Part L of the Buildings Regulations takes a more holistic view of a building than the individual elements, such as windows, you might try saying that you will add extra insulation to the loft or do other such work to compensate. That might give the BCO a route out of his muddle.

 

[hoppy]

If you go on your council's web site, there should be a section (Building Control)
all requirements should be published there... good luck

 

[Flyfisher]

OK, so I don't have a BCO completion certificate, but why would that be required if I came to sell the house?I've simply replaced rotten single-glazed windows with new single-glazed windows to exactly the same design, as per the LBC.

But my windows were not 'like for like'. Because they had to be a means of escape, they were slightly altered - they look the same but open differently. So I had to get LBC and BCOs approval.

Presumably it was the BCO that insisted the windows had to be a means of escape, hence the slight alteration. My CO was happy with like-for-like and with no BCO involvement the 'escape' requirement didn't arise - even though they were attic room dormer windows.

However, the company that made the windows for me (and knew they were for attic rooms) did ask if they needed to be 'escape windows', so these specialist window companies certainly seem to be on the ball.

 

[inamuddle]

Now that Part L of the Buildings Regulations takes a more holistic view of a building than the individual elements, such as windows, you might try saying that you will add extra insulation to the loft or do other such work to compensate. That might give the BCO a route out of his muddle.

I'll hold that one up my sleeve as a bargaining chip, thank you.

Tbh I'm a little bit angry. I'm starting to think I'm a black & white person - you see I thought building regs were more set in stone. I appreciate listing is a bit subjective and flexible, depends on CO and building. But I thought building regs were Appendix A, Appendix B etc ie more concrete and transparent, less subjective. I thought there might be definitive legislation covering this situation ie listing says single glazed therefore buildings regs either can or can't demand secondary glazing to comply. Why is nothing in life easy !

 

[inamuddle]

If you go on your council's web site, there should be a section (Building Control)
all requirements should be published there... good luck

I looked on the Council's website but can't remember if it was there or while googling that I found the bit about window requirements. Tbh I got confused, it was pretty technical. But regardless of that, what I read mentioned English Heritage and that other factors i.e. listing may over-ride what the legislation was saying. In my case, the listing stipulations over-rode what would normally be demanded, this seems to be normal. But what I need to find out is, given that the listing requirement is accepted as dominant, can building regs insist on additional glazing. Further compounded by the apparent situation where they never have before, but are now. Or maybe I'm a one-off ?

 

[MattW]

I've just been through something similar last month. I received planning permission & listed building consent (grade II) to replace like for like some rotten single glazed georgian sash windows both on front & rear facades of 1820s terrace house and also put back sash windows that had been changed to casement windows in the 1960s in a rear extension built probably in the 1920s. Fortunately I spoke to the building regs surveyor prior to ordering the windows. He was insistent that Part L of the building regs meant that I had to put double glazing into all windows even if it was a like for like replacement if I was replacing the whole box & sashes rather just a repair of the sashes. He then clarified that he accepted that double glazing was unlikely to be acceptable to the conservation officer on the front facade but that he would expect all other windows to be double glazed.

I did some research online about what the actual regulations say and wrote back quoting the relevent sections and pointing out that Part L actually refers to the whole project and hence he should take into account the floor & roof insulation I was voluntarily putting in and also that Part L makes clear that for listed buildings the surveyor has to take into account the historic fabric and that they should consider taking advice from the conservation officer. At this point he accepted that were the conservation officer to write to him stating that they required particular windows to be single glazed then that would be acceptable to him, but that he was very keen for double glazing to be put in where possible. I spoke to the conservation officer asking them to recommend/require that all the windows on the main house be single glazed, which they were very happy to do. They were also relaxed about the glazing of the later extension. So in the end we got to an amicable compromise where the new windows & doors in the extension would be double glazed using Slimlite double glazing and that the replacement windows on the rear facade & front facades of the original building would be single glazed.

So in summary, my experience was that was along as I could show the build regs guy why, given the requirements of the conservation officer, what was being done was in compliance of the regs as a whole then everything was fine. This all took about a week to resolve. I was a bit surprised that I had to broker a deal between two officers of the same council, but apart from that they were both professional, very quick to respond to emails and wanted to be as helpful as they could be within 'the rules'.

Matt

 

[inamuddle]

I spoke to the conservation officer asking them to recommend/require that all the windows on the main house be single glazed, which they were very happy to do. They were also relaxed about the glazing of the later extension. So in the end we got to an amicable compromise where the new windows & doors in the extension would be double glazed using Slimlite double glazing and that the replacement windows on the rear facade & front facades of the original building would be single glazed.
Matt

Thank you very much Matt. I appreciate you sharing your experience and it's kind of clarified things a bit for me - I really was confused about what was going on.

I think my first mistake was - when spec & drawings for windows were supplied to the BCO, I assumed he was happy with them as I had no negative feedback from him. I should have specifically phoned him or written asking this question. I don't think my assumption was unreasonable, but I should have covered my backside.

When the other BCO inspected the property during works, similarly nothing was flagged up as unacceptable about the new windows. Again I read this as ''no problem''. Again my assumption, though again I think it reasonable.

Ok, how to resolve this. I can offer to provide additional roof insulation as a previous poster mentioned - I think that's the only thing I can throw into the pot though, it may or may not be enough. And I note that your single-glazed windows on the front & back facade did not require secondary glazing. What I take from that is that it's not mandatory which is the impression I've been given. So my only option is to belatedly do a bit of horse-trading, and tbh my horse is a bit of a runt At least my sense of humour is starting to return.

 

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[biffvernon]

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T/A AM Windows & Doors
6 St Marys Drive
Greenfield
OL3 7DT
contact@amwindowsanddoors.co.uk
Telephone: 01457 878171
to tell him how much we love plastic windows.
:twisted:

 

[Cloudscape]

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