Fireplace puzzle

[TheSpid]

When the old false wall was taken down we discovered this 'hole' in the wall underneath the bread oven.


We assumed the builders took out one stone too many but upon closer inspection the space is obviously meant to be a void. The floor I believe has had concrete poured in, and part of the false wall still exists as well as some concrete hearth that need to come out so the depth of this 'hole'/ entrance would be bigger



Inside you can see the back wall, stone to the side and a large stone above.




Does any one have any idea what it could have been for?

[The room above the bread oven has an ensuite within the chimney breast [don't ask I didn't do it] but I can't imagine anyone excavating that amount of stone just to put in a shower or cupboard [which I think it was before it was a shower] so I think it was like it from the beginning - no idea if this is of any interest/help.]

 

[noj]

A void under a bread oven is pretty common - there's one under my brick built one (and they've been around a long time - here's a pic of one in Pompeii ttps://www.wood-firedoven.co.uk/history-wood-fired-ovens/!)

They're often shown filled with firewood, but I suspect they're really there as a safe space to shovel out hot ashes before putting the bread in...



... or just somewhere for the house elf to live in our place

 

[CliffordPope]

There's a brick arch underneath the base of the bread oven - why?
Was there once a third hole there?

Our cottage has three holes in the stonework, with brick arches over each. The top one is the oven, the middle is for a fire, having an iron grate and the remains of a fire-door, and the lower one collects the ash from the middle one. The flue from the fire runs at the back inside the wall, through the back of the oven, then on inside the wall until it merges with the big chimney higher up.

 

[TheSpid]

A void under a bread oven is pretty common
They're often shown filled with firewood, but I suspect they're really there as a safe space to shovel out hot ashes before putting the bread in...
... or just somewhere for the house elf to live in our place

Thanks noj, I suspect our house elf will find it a nice place to be once cleaned out. Strangely neither my builder nor the Ty Mawr man nor my brother who works for the NT knew what it was for. Hence my confusion.

 

[noj]

There's certainly no flue, or even gaps in the brickwork for smoke escape in the bottom space. The whole oven stack is obviously a later addition to the inglenook and the oven part has a flue opening out into the inglenook although no flue inside. The brick dome in there has no mortar though so maybe there's a space above that allows smoke that filters through to make it's way to that?

A google image search throws up quite a few similar arrangements too but I can't find a definitive description anywhere of what the lower space is actually for

 

[CliffordPope]

I've just read up how a bread oven works. I hadn't realised the fire was made in the oven itself until the walls were hot, then the ash raked out and after cooling to the right temperature, the bread put in and the door shut and sealed.
You couldn't do that in ours, the vent connections with the chamber below and the flue on top would set up a cooling draught - the oven isn't sealed.
In any case the grate in the chamber below clearly suggests the fire was underneath the baking oven, and the hot gases passed up through the oven. (Looking more closely I see there are in fact three connections with the fire box - one at the back, and a smaller one each side.)

 

[TheSpid]

A bit more removal of modern cement meant the opening widened and it 'feels' right now. The crud on the floor still needs removing but me and my hammer and bolster can't do that.

Also found some scratched in marks on a big stone - don't look like witch marks - what could they be I wonder?

 

[Kearn]

[The room above the bread oven has an ensuite within the chimney breast [don't ask I didn't do it] but I can't imagine anyone excavating that amount of stone just to put in a shower or cupboard [which I think it was before it was a shower] so I think it was like it from the beginning - no idea if this is of any interest/help.]

I'm intrigued by this?!!? Was it originally an upstairs fireplace that had been enlarged to squeeze a shower in?

 

[TheSpid]

[The room above the bread oven has an ensuite within the chimney breast [don't ask I didn't do it] but I can't imagine anyone excavating that amount of stone just to put in a shower or cupboard [which I think it was before it was a shower] so I think it was like it from the beginning - no idea if this is of any interest/help.]

I'm intrigued by this?!!? Was it originally an upstairs fireplace that had been enlarged to squeeze a shower in?

No I don't think so. the 'ensuite' [raised chamber pot on a cupboard by the bed - can you tell I'm not enamoured with it?] is at the far edge of the room.

So, I've uploaded some pics -[ it is all the same bedroom just didn't have pics of all the wall all done at the same time]

The back wall is all the same level expect for the right hand side [stood looking at it]. The 'ensuite' is built in the recess [the shower] and then has a study wall section that comes out in to the room - with that awful louvre door on it.



Where the shower base starts is where the recess in the wall begins. Thereis evidence of life before an ensuite and we assume it used to be a cupboard. But can't see why anyone would excavate all that stone for a cupboard AND the purlin beam runs all the way through the shower to the far wall now painted in gloss white in that area :? . Without ripping out the ensuite and pulling up it's floor [on the to do list but for in a few yeas time] I'm not sure how we confirm why there is a recess there.

 

[Cubist]

Before some cabinet maker decided that he could design and sell the things we call wardrobes, and production costs fell to the level at which they could be afforded by common folk, there was a need to provide some space to hang/store clothing. I understand that oftentimes such cupboard spaces would be located near to the chimney breast as this would help to reduce the risk of damp and ensuing mildew. So perhaps your recess provided a close for clothing before it was converted to a water closet.

 

[Kearn]

Hard to tell from pics, but why do you think it's a recess rather than the external edge of the stack? Is there a chance that the outer wall of the bathroom, with the shower on it, is a later addition to provide a vertical in the eave? This is probably the area I'd start investigating first if it was me...!

If there wasn't an upstairs fireplace, I'd expect the stack to be corbelling in noticeably to reduce stone costs when built, rather than maintaining an unnecessary width.

What also strikes me as unexpected (although may be different for a stone built cottage than timber) is that the fireplace and stack would appear to have been built (partially?) within the footprint of the building rather than on the outside, as I believed to be more common for that era to maintain the floorspace and a flat wall rather then compromise the room dimensions and visual appearance by having a protrusion into the room.
I didn't think this was the case from the downstairs inglenook which seems to have been built outside the wall? But up stairs the purlin implies that the gable wall is deeper than the stack stonework?

Again may just be the imagery...! Unfortunately you never really know until you start removing the modern layers. Which is why I've reined in my 'investigations'

 

[TheSpid]

Hmm, interesting thoughts - I suppose I thought it was a recess as the other side of the room doesn't 'recess' [that I can tell] at the moment. But, of course, you could be completely right. I had had the thought it could just be the edge of the chimney breast. When we decide to investigate I will look at the wall first I think. That's going to be a way down the line though.

The inglenook is built with-in the room I believe not added on outside. The bigger of the two bread ovens goes back as far as the back of the chimney breast and there isn't anything to be seen outside. I 'think' it's a type C from the Houses of the Welsh countryside book - the living room and hallway being the original accommodation and the kitchen area a barn [or so we have been lead to believe]. We have a converted byre [definitely a byre until the seventies as have spoken to someone who still lives here who remembers it back then] on the back of the fireplace. There is no external chimney stack 'bump' to be seen.

 

[TheSpid]

Also thinking - on the opposite side of the bedroom we have a strange cubby hole -

So it is very possible this is just a consequence of the chimney breast having been fixed to look neat. Maybe there are recesses both sides? Who knows and in a couple of years time when the bedroom is on our to do list I'll let you know the outcome.

 

[Kearn]

Also thinking - on the opposite side of the bedroom we have a strange cubby hole

I've changed my mind, THIS is definitely where I would start investigating....

 

[Kearn]

I 'think' it's a type C from the Houses of the Welsh countryside book -

if it were almost identical to the type C house then you would certainly have an offset fireplace downstairs and possibly an off centre stack on the first floor, but definitely no stack above where the entrance door would have been which could be your en suite.

This is quite a similar layout to the oldest part of our house, a two bay late 16C cottage - our inglenook however does protrude outside the timber frame although highly likely built with the house and not after. We're offset to allow a doorway at some stage.

 

[TheSpid]

Hmm, interesting Kearn, There is a greater width on one side of the fire place to the other - whether enough is another matter. The bit under the ensuite is 113cm whilst the other side is 64cm. [that's before removing the horrid cement render]. I suppose what will also be interesting is when we take off the outside render and see if the stone work reveals any secrets. I suppose the larger brick oven could have been put in when the possible door was moved. Who knows? I love the mystery this house gives. I'd like a few more answers as well though. I think I'm going to have to develop great patience.

 

[TheSpid]

Actually mulling this over ni my head through the storm that stopped me sleeping last night - I don't think it can have been an external door as 'we were told' the back of the house was built into the hillside until the 1920s and that's why there are no windows that side of the house in that room. Hearsay I grant you.

 

[Kearn]

Fair enough! We've heard many 'facts' about our cottage plus various Georgian extensions and their incarnations over time. None of them true in the slightest!! :roll:

But we do have the benefit of being able to labouriously read the structure and it's story from within as we peel things away. Plus a couple of solid days spent in the local records office was invaluable to understand more about the village and it's evolution. Sasly nothing much specifically about our home before mid 1700s when it became part of the manorial estate. But after that the refugees are very well maintained.

Anyway, back to the fireplace - I had assumed your layout was as per the book. regardless, unless theyre was an upstairs fireplace, your stack would corbel inwards above the main inglenook, on both sides although not necessarily symmetrically! At best it could remain vertical until the roofline, but would only be the width of the opening plus 9inches or so.
So if the bread oven complex is beneath the bathroom (not the fireplace) then unless there was an extravagantly joined / dedicated flue, there wouldn't be a chimney stack above it.

 

[TheSpid]

Both bread ovens are at the edge and the big one under the shower and the small one under the odd nook so I'm sure you are right about the chimney shape.

Not much we have been told have proved to be true already - I need to search the local archives though. We do have a mention of the house?land? by name in a document from 1602 when it was given to the son of the Lord of Powys. Whether there was actually a house on the named land at that point I haven't yet discovered. Still only been here a few months so plenty of tome to do research.