Grade I and grade II definition

[Anonymous]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the correct definition and the implications of Grade I and Grade II listing. Am I correct in assuming that grade I buildings are of national importance and therefore cannot be touched in any way without prior permision and guidance from English heritage and that Grade II buildings are only of local importance with the implication being that the exterior cannot be altered in any way but the interior can be altered at the discretion of the local authority. If my definition of grade II is correct, do the requirements of the local authorities differ from area to area or is there a national standard that they have to adhere to?

 

[Anonymous]

We are Grade 1. When we bought the place nobody contacted us to say do this or don't do that.
The local authority, in their 'searches' for which we all pay dearly, declared it to be Grade 2. We have framed the document! A phone call to English Heritage elicited a grumpy 'Grade 1'. No offer of help, advice. Nothing. We just get on with life. Fact is the system is chaotic.
How very fortunate that SPAB exists.

 

[Anonymous]

Michael
You will find every Conservation Officer different througout the land. Whilst they have a frame work to live with in relation to listings , it really is up to the discretion of the individual CO. If you want to make alterations that you feel they would not agree with. Invite them around for coffee and make your point in a valid way why you want and need to make these changes. Remember even if you get your local CO onboard with your way of thinking, you still need to apply for Listed Building Consent.

 

[Anonymous]

Excuse my ignorance but what is the correct definition and the implications of Grade I and Grade II listing. Am I correct in assuming that grade I buildings are of national importance and therefore cannot be touched in any way without prior permision and guidance from English heritage

More or less correct so far

and that Grade II buildings are only of local importance with the implication being that the exterior cannot be altered in any way

No,

but the interior can be altered at the discretion of the local authority.

Not really

If my definition of grade II is correct, do the requirements of the local authorities differ from area to area or is there a national standard that they have to adhere to?

Bit of both. I suggest you look up PPG15 (link below) which is the national policy guidance, but discuss plans with your local conservation officer.

I know a lot of people think COs are inconsistent - on the whole we aren't, it's the individual listed buildings that are.

Note that PPG15 is *guidance*, the *law* is enshrined in the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990



PPG15 in full

 

[Anonymous]

"We are Grade 1. When we bought the place nobody contacted us to say do this or don't do that.
The local authority, in their 'searches' for which we all pay dearly, declared it to be Grade 2. We have framed the document! A phone call to English Heritage elicited a grumpy 'Grade 1'. No offer of help, advice. Nothing."

Did you actually *ask* for help or guidance or just expect them to give it without telling them what you wanted to know? I mean, I could start giving you guidance on listed buildings now and still be doing it in the middle of next month, but 99.99% of it would be of no use to your particular case.

 

[Anonymous]

Gareth
I've had a brief look through the document ppg15 that you kindly provided with a link. A very long document with lots of information and guidence on building conservation in general but I couldn't find any reference to definitions of Grade I and Grade II. or did I miss it? I assume that the document applies to both. You said that I was almost correct with my understanding of the implications of grade I but I appeared to be incorrect with my definitions of Grade II. I am therefore still none the wiser. Could you clarify further?

Many thanks
Michael

 

[Anonymous]

Micahel
Gareth is a CO, so it's very presumptious of me to pre-empt his further reply to you. However, speaking as an enthusiastic amateur who has worked on a number of listed buildings, the following are my somewhat random thoughts on this topic.

The reason that there are no clearly defined parameters for what is and is not permissable for listed buildings (regardless of grade) is that every listed building is different. The listing system covers a truly enormous spectrum of buildings of all ages, and it would be impossible to force them all into a rigid system of categories. How can you equate a 19th century Somerset farmhouse with interesting windows and a concrete pillbox gun emplacement? (An extreme and random example, I know, but you get my drift).

So the enforcement of the general principle of listing - ie that nothing should be done to alter the character of the building - can only be left up to the judgement of qualified people. But because of the individual nature of every building this judgement will inevitably contain a strong element of subjectivity. So no two CO's can ever be expected to arrive at identical judgements in every case.

CO's get an awful lot of flak - I wouldn't want the job for all the tea in Tesco's! They inevitably find themselves branded as "the nasty guy" by people who have LBC applications turned down. But I can only tell you from my own experiences that if your approach to the stewardship of your listed building is reasonable, you'll generally find them reasonable. Before formal LBC applications are lodged, they normally encourage people to have an informal discussion with them about any plans they have for a building, and I have always found this useful. It helps you to understand what the CO regards as important (and hence sacrosanct) about your particular building, and it helps you to avoid applying for consents that will be summarily thrown out.

For a Grade 1 building, I suspect that any LBC application you made would have to be passed up to English Heritage (I think that's how it works) but nevertheless I'm sure your CO will be ready to discuss things with you and give you useful advice.

But neither EH nor your CO is going to offer advice that hasn't been asked for. They've got too much on their plates for that to be possible.

 

[Anonymous]

Just to add, if this is in relation to specific properties then look up the details of the listing. Find out why it was listed. Ive heard of buildings listed because of the floor, the roof, etc. Obviously if the description of the property in the listing goes on about the roof structure you are not going to be able to put a dormer in!

 

[Anonymous]

>The listing system covers a truly enormous spectrum of buildings

Most milestones and mileposts are listed, usually grade II but I know of at least one that is grade II*

So now we need an explanation of the difference the * makes (before the rules change and all the II* become I)

 

[Anonymous]

A couple of responses have questioned my expectation that English Heritage (or anybody else) might offer advice about these things unless asked about something specific. Well, dammit yes they should.
Forgetting milestones and pillboxes for a while, most of the buildings we are talking about are houses - places in which people live. Most people are unaware of Listing and its intricacies until they happen upon a Listed Building and buy it.
There appears to be no system of spelling out to purchasers what the Listing means - what they can and cannot do.
We bought a Grade 1 Listed house. Could we change the colour of the walls to suit our taste? Could we buy new carpets? Could we change channels from BBC1 to ITV? We did not and, so far as 'the system' is concerned, still do not know.

 

[Anonymous]

Well now you undertstand what a mine filed this subject is. Welcome to our world..... good luck with it.
It can be fun.

 

[Anonymous]

Could this be a "definition" from the English Heritage website -

Grade I buildings are those of exceptional interest
Grade II* are particularly important buildings of more than special interest
Grade II are of special interest, warranting every effort to preserve them

Suitably vague and leaving lots to interpretation but thats as much a definition as I've ever seen. I think your assumption that grade II may not be externally altered is wrong. The test as to whether an alteration requires lbc is "does it alter the special character of the building?". If it does, you need consent and that goes for the whole building inside and out. English Heritage are statutory consultees for GI and GII* aplications which means they as good as get to decide, or they advise the Sec of State what to do, whereas a plain GII can be determined by the local authority without reference to them, which I suppose means the CO as good as gets to decide. That sounds to me like the interior (and anything else) of a GII can be altered at the discretion of the local authority though decisions must presumably be in accordance with PPG whatsit so not total discretion. All clear?



Advice for Owners of Listed Buildings

 

[Anonymous]

"A couple of responses have questioned my expectation that English Heritage (or anybody else) might offer advice about these things unless asked about something specific. Well, dammit yes they should."

Do you drive?

What did you do, sit in your car waiting for a driving instructor to come along and tell you what to do?

I expect not, you went out and found him and asked him to teach you to drive.

I'd have thought when buying your house your solicitor should have told you it was listed, that it would mean it was different to other houses and that you should go and seek advice from the appropriate specialists.

Graham

 

[Anonymous]

I refer you to my rather tedious essay above. It's absolutely impossible to imagine a document that gives owners of listed buildings advice on what can and can't be done. The document would fill several fat volumes, because of the enormous variety of listed buildings. And if it's that big, who's going to read it, and how are they going to find the snippits that might be relevant to their building?
Instead, the system is that - if you are considering any work on your listed building - you talk to your local CO and discuss your plans. He/she then advises you on what might or might not be permissable, based on their knowledge of your specific building.
It's far from a perfect system, but it's about the only way it can work.

 

[Anonymous]

The system is also changing - and it is hoped more guidance will be forthcoming for individual properties, but as English Heritage is desperately starved of cash it's not clear where the resources will come from to carry this out. Sadly heritage comes bottom of the pile when Government funding is dished out - sport is flavour of the decade.

EH has come in for some flak during the current Commons Select Committee hearings on heritage - and a Peer Review has been announced. There's also been a great deal of raising of the subject of the dire funding too. More cash would mean more help.

There's also a desperate shortage of apprpriately qualified CO's - a large number of local authorities don't actually have one.

The FAQ part of the IoE website gives further reading regarding Listed Buildings - if you follow the links via the section headed 'Listed Buildings and the Listing Process'.

PPG15 Annexe C gives some general guidance on alterations to listed buildings.

There are a number of national conservation groups which provide advice on historic buildings; I do think that it is up to those who buy a historic building to do some research about what is important about it and appropriate ways to care for it.



http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk

 

[Anonymous]

Some II* may become II...

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the English Heritage website definition of Grade I , GradeII* and Grade II supplied by (Old Hand) but are there different legal implications, requirements and owner responsibilities applied to each of these catagories and if so what are they?
From the discussion so far, my understanding is that any works to any buildings in any of these catagories is all of great importantace but with some works or buildings being greater than others. therefore in every case any works carried out will always require professional guidance and permission from the area CO with the exception of work which involves repairing or replacing "like for like" in Grade II buidings only)
Those buildings listed as Grade I or Grade II*however will in addition require proffesional guidance and permission from English Heritage, which will be sought by the local CO and this will apply even if repairing or replacing like with like.
Am I nearly there?? This is even worse than the offside rule or the rules of cricket

 

[Anonymous]

Weeell - all buildings and structures are different, and so hard and fast rules can't really be said to apply.

Even with apparent 'like for like' repairs, I'd still check with your CO! That's assumng your local authority has one. Not all do, sadly.

English Heritage is certainly involved as well as your local authority and has to be consulted if you want to do work on II* and I buildings.

 

[Anonymous]

Evelyn, there must be a hard and fast rule, the CO,s cant make it up as they go along surely? If there are no rules for these gradings set in stone then how can the conservation departments enforce their authority. Without reference to set rules/laws they would be torn to pieces in court.

I do however understand that to touch anything on a Grade I or Grade II* building needs consultation, (judgement) and permission from English heritage but the rules for an ordinary Grade II still remain very vague, or is it that everything, and I mean everything must be run past the local CO and either accepted or rejected at his or her own discretion? In other words is it the local CO and not English Heritage that is the law maker when dealing with ordinary gradeII buildings?
You say that some local authorities dont even have a CO so who decides on the rules and laws or the dos and dont's for ordinary grade II buildings in that instance?or can the property owner carry out sympathetic works without seeking conservation expertise? This whole structure is begining to sound very flimsy

 

[Anonymous]

Of course it's 'flimsy' - because there simply cannot be hard and fast rules as all buildings and structures are different. The law is enshrined in the 1990 Act, with guidance in PPG 15 and Annexe C. For Grade II buildings, deliveryof the nitty gritty is devolved to local planning authorities to administer.

All local authorities in reality have to have is 'advice' - they don't have to employ a CO. Such advice should be from an appropriately skilled person. And in general there is an accepted conservation ethos. Sadly, there is a shortage of skilled and qualified Conservation Officers - a matter which has again been raised at the DCMS Commons Select Committee on heritage. However, this shortage cannot be remedied overnight.

I wouldn't chance doing work of any substance without running it past the local authority however. That way you can have action taken against you. And although patchy, it happens.

Yes, you can challenge a refusal to allow LBC for work. You can always appeal.

Keep in mind though that buildings are listed for a reason - to conserve the nation's architectural and historic built heritage. Rather too many alterations and what you end up with is something not worth preserving.