Paint removal recommendations

[Kearn]

Remarkably, and sensibly, we’ve got the go ahead from our CO to rid our timber frame inside and out, and brick infill panels, of the suffocating black and white muck painted on in the 70s… I had a great experience Heritage operator lined up, who sadly can’t now take on the job. So, it’s alway worth an ask on here …
- does anyone have any good recommendations in the SW for experienced, heritage operators who use Doff/Thermatec/Torc systems on old properties - success is all down to the operator and their skill/experience. It’s never as simple as ‘shot blasting is damaging, soda is not, how about crushed almond shells…’
- internally, we have too much house and too much complexity obscuring the frame for someone to come in and clean the timber in one go, plus we have now moved in, so I’m considering purchasing kit so I can do it myself slowly, as and when we get to each room…any one got personal experience of doing this and where you got kit from? There’s a large amount of more important timber I will do manually / chemically, but too much to do the whole house this way.

Cheers all

 

[Toby Newell]

I would never advise any blasting method on anything but 100% sound, non friable timber, but I do have a good friend and colleague in North London who I believe has a nearly new compressor / soda blasting system and a ton of soda. I think the soda has deteriorated but he still has the machinery.

He bought it to clean brickwork but after one quick use decided it wasn't for him. I could ask him if he still has it.

Just spoke with him, he has, a £450 soda blaster, £1200 diesel compressor and a £1500 triple motor Numatic industrial vacuum. I sold him the vacuum hardly used and he has used the blaster and compressor for about an hour! He got it for cleaning brickwork but he quickly realised the bricks were too soft, so it's sitting there new and unused.

He is one of my best friends and luckily doesn't know about this forum. If you are interested I would make him a lowball offer (not stupid, but very mildly offensive) he is going to clear out his summerhouse this summer and I think he really would like the space.

If you are interested I can pm you his contact details.

 

[Toby Newell]

success is all down to the operator and their skill/experience. It’s never as simple as ‘shot blasting is damaging, soda is not, how about crushed almond shells…’

no.

and yes.

No. success is not all down to operator skill/experience, it also involves physics and honesty.

Yes. It certainly isn't ever simple.

I would however caution you as a finishing, stripping and materials science expert who has seen a lot promises broken and substrates damaged, a very large proportion of the industry is based upon lies. Lies and curiously small example photographs...

There are only 3 physical processes most of which overlap.

1. Chemical. This dissolves or breaks down the coating, usually requires some minor form of mechanical agitation to remove the residue.

2. Mechanical. Tools or abrasive media is moved accross the surface at various angles, whether that be fixed tool (abrasive paper is essentially thousands of tiny tools) gas or liquid entrained.

3. Thermal. Solid, Gas or liquid at reduced or elevated temperatures is propelled at high speed to the surface. This also includes a mechanical element.

All three are somewhat destructive. Chemical is the most gentle (for example you can strip a Sheraton sideboard with it) the other two are more destructive.

There is no such thing as a gentle mechanical / thermal method, just more or less gentle.

Mechanical abrades the contaminant / coating right down to the substrate, removing part of the substrate in the process. Just as your muscles do not care if you are lifting a bag of potatoes, an iron dumbell or a rope attached to a resistance machine so your substrate does not care if you are blasting it with dry ice, water, sand or soda. All it sees is particles or streams of matter with momentun. Yes, the shape of the particles can increase efficiency but it is mostly momentum, mass X velocity.

You are 100% correct that a very skilled and experienced operative using a gentler method can go over an area several times so as to cut into the substrate as little as possible but this is rarely the case. In general operatives like to do the job as fast as possible and in this instance whether you use a light particle at high speed or a denser particle at lower speed, or a liquid is largely irrelevant. All that matters is the momentum imparted to the surface is enough to shatter it into pieces. The physical force required does not change!

Also beware of pseudo science mumbo jumbo like 'vortices'. A vortex is simply a fluid mass moving in a circular motion. It may mean that the method is more efficient and requires less power for a given effect because the swirling motion does not readily bounce straight off the substrate. However... the angular momentum coupled with the forward momentum means the momentum at the surface (force experienced by the substrate) is the same as other methods. No physical laws are broken or subverted by any amount of marketing flim flam.

Thermal is designed for street furniture, metal, strong stone, brick and concrete and for ships for example, not wood. It works best on oleo resinous and single part reversible organic compounds / mastics / adhesives and organic fouling. Many of these compounds having thermoplastic properties extreme cold puts them below their glass transition temperature (glue, bitumen, chewing gum) which helps them shatter. Heating them reduces their viscosity. Thermal methods work best on dense stone or metal.

ANY blasting method with leave a furry surface on wood that will need to be sanded before coating. On metal this can be desirable as the depth of the 'furr' is orders of magnitude less and can act as a good key for subsequent coatings.

Hot water at high pressure can also damage old timbers that are friable or simply weathered.

Poultice chemical stripping followed by hand scraping and sanding may be uneconomical but it does not change the fact that all the other advertised methods are quite a lot more destructive, despite all the QVC like miracle assertions.

Methods used in industry predominantly on steel and concrete can work on strong sound timber and indeed may prove to be the only economically viable solution, but do not be overly surprised if they are not as gentle or miraculous as touted.

You should bear in mind man has been coating things for at least 3,000 years and presumably occasionally removing them too. All these 'new' methods are actually industrial processes used mainly on steel for decades.

Note to self: read OP carefully.

Brick infills, depending upon condition, some methods may be more suitable for bricks, at least modern ones. All of the above is regarding wood, I have very little experience on the strength of old bricks except the assumption they may be weaker and more porous than contemporary ones.

 

[LadyArowana]

These people are currently working on the outside of the Primark building in Bath which is right opposite the Roman Baths and had something inappropriate done to it and was apparently subject to enforcement for remediation.

 

[Kearn]

These people are currently working on the outside of the Primark building in Bath which is right opposite the Roman Baths and had something inappropriate done to it and was apparently subject to enforcement for remediation.

Ah brilliant, that’s a decent gig… they also happen to be very close by which always helps. May be some other work to discuss too! Cheers

 

[Kearn]

Note to self: read OP carefully.

Brick infills, depending upon condition, some methods may be more suitable for bricks, at least modern ones. All of the above is regarding wood, I have very little experience on the strength of old bricks except the assumption they may be weaker and more porous than contemporary ones.

Yeah, it was snuck in there…! They are actually the more offending and important sections, given the edges have cement or god knows what else to hand shoved in against the frame and painted over.

I would never go for a blast media on them, way too old to risk the fire skin - there may be the chance to do them manually slowly, or hoping heat may do the trick to lift the paint with Doff or similar as there doesn’t appear to be any trace of protective limewash under the plastic gloop, so manual removal may be tricky.

 

[Kearn]

I would never advise any blasting method on anything but 100% sound, non friable timber, but I do have a good friend and colleague in North London who I believe has a nearly new compressor / soda blasting system and a ton of soda. I think the soda has deteriorated but he still has the machinery.

He bought it to clean brickwork but after one quick use decided it wasn't for him. I could ask him if he still has it.

Just spoke with him, he has, a £450 soda blaster, £1200 diesel compressor and a £1500 triple motor Numatic industrial vacuum. I sold him the vacuum hardly used and he has used the blaster and compressor for about an hour! He got it for cleaning brickwork but he quickly realised the bricks were too soft, so it's sitting there new and unused.

He is one of my best friends and luckily doesn't know about this forum. If you are interested I would make him a lowball offer (not stupid, but very mildly offensive) he is going to clear out his summerhouse this summer and I think he really would like the space.

If you are interested I can pm you his contact details.

Ha! Only just spotted the edit, seems replies are notified, but not changes!

Yes please, contact details would be great - I have the luxury of time to test and learn slowly and gently, as I carry on with everything else to get this place into shape over the years. Compared to the massive cost of paying someone to do it, the cost of kit is usually cheaper… even if you do get stuck with it after!

 

[LadyArowana]

Ah brilliant, that’s a decent gig… they also happen to be very close by which always helps. May be some other work to discuss too! Cheers

I peeked in behind all the plastic curtains on the scaffold and there was a lot of kit chuntering away. No highly visible hard hatted workers to ask about it so I took a souvenir picture instead. Then headed into Primark to trawl for a bit of bargain fashion

 

[Toby Newell]

Ha! Only just spotted the edit, seems replies are notified, but not changes!

Yes please, contact details would be great - I have the luxury of time to test and learn slowly and gently, as I carry on with everything else to get this place into shape over the years. Compared to the massive cost of paying someone to do it, the cost of kit is usually cheaper… even if you do get stuck with it after!

ok will do, he will probably split.

make him a lowball lol, he is one of my best freinds but he really has accumulated a lot of crap and he really wants to tidy up.

I think its hard when you think of all the money you lost, but thats sunk cost fallacy.

I would offer him £1300 for the lot, I think its about £3,200 worth.

I think soda blasting is the gentlest of the blasting on wood. I think you should be careful on brick though, Peter (seller) bought the kit for use on brick but the bricks were too soft, so not sure if you could do a test beforehand! maybe hire for a day?

If you know the provenance of the paint is deffo 70's then its more likely to be oil bound alkyd rather than acrylic. Maybe one of the 'hot' methods might be helpful, although probably not so elastic now! I'm not an expert on paint finishes per say.

You deffo want some form of industrial vacuum and also some form of compartmentalising inside.

Consider Bessey plasterboard props, I have the Protectascreen system I rarely use but you could easily buy some 1000 mil PE sheeting or large tarps and hold to ceiling with the supports. You might need to put a plank over the top to spread the load.

I think I cut my protecta screen sheet! Only used twice, and an unused zip door, I will check next time Im at my storage (just got back XD) althoigh expensive the Bessey props look easier to use.

Yes! I am edit boy... you might want to set up an ebay seach for air fed respirators... 3M are the best.

Remember, its not the cost of the kit, its the depreciation after you have sold it on! If you spend £2,000 in total and estimate selling for £1,500 say 2yrs later (with inflation you depreciation may be negative!) then its cost you £500, which is probably a day to hire a company or a weeks hire.

In general doing yourself is best as restoration industry is a shark / cess pit of liars who don't care about what they do.

It's not rocket science, it's finding a method that is slighly less aggressive than what you need, then going over multiple times.

Pretty much all commercial dudes be doing more aggressive to minimise time and maximise profits.

Doing yourself you can take longer, esp. if you own the kit.

PM sent

 

[Lacan07]

I peeked in behind all the plastic curtains on the scaffold and there was a lot of kit chuntering away. No highly visible hard hatted workers to ask about it so I took a souvenir picture instead. Then headed into Primark to trawl for a bit of bargain fashion

LadyA shopping in Primark? I don't believe it!!

 

[a twig]

These people are currently working on the outside of the Primark building in Bath which is right opposite the Roman Baths and had something inappropriate done to it and was apparently subject to enforcement for remediation.

Second vote for this lot, they did a fair amount of work on my place - stripping all sorts of hideous finishes off the bath stone ashlar and then dressing the stonework and repointing.

 

[LadyArowana]

LadyA shopping in Primark? I don't believe it!!

It’s true, there’s things I sell my soul for which are in the V&A collection, and there’s other things in the wardrobe for scruffng about with the tradies ( or more accurately waiting for tradies who fail to appear )

 

[dawntebbett]

Remarkably, and sensibly, we’ve got the go ahead from our CO to rid our timber frame inside and out, and brick infill panels, of the suffocating black and white muck painted on in the 70s… I had a great experience Heritage operator lined up, who sadly can’t now take on the job. So, it’s alway worth an ask on here …
- does anyone have any good recommendations in the SW for experienced, heritage operators who use Doff/Thermatec/Torc systems on old properties - success is all down to the operator and their skill/experience. It’s never as simple as ‘shot blasting is damaging, soda is not, how about crushed almond shells…’
- internally, we have too much house and too much complexity obscuring the frame for someone to come in and clean the timber in one go, plus we have now moved in, so I’m considering purchasing kit so I can do it myself slowly, as and when we get to each room…any one got personal experience of doing this and where you got kit from? There’s a large amount of more important timber I will do manually / chemically, but too much to do the whole house this way.

Cheers all

Hi , we have exactly the same problem and the same thoughts we need to do this gently ourselves, have you managed to find out any more information as to what equipment and the best medium is ? Thanks

 

[Kearn]

Hi , we have exactly the same problem and the same thoughts we need to do this gently ourselves, have you managed to find out any more information as to what equipment and the best medium is ? Thanks

Yes, we’ve reached a plan… there are a couple of companies who most COs find acceptable - Stonehealth and Restorative Techniques, they respectively make and supply Doff & Torc, and

 

[dawntebbett]

Yes, we’ve reached a plan… there are a couple of companies who most COs find acceptable - Stonehealth and Restorative Techniques, they respectively make and supply Doff & Torc, and

Are they doing this for you or are you still planning to do yourself?

 

[Kearn]

Are they doing this for you or are you still planning to do yourself?

Lost in my meandering above…!

I’ll do the paint softener application as that’s wasted money.
I’ll pay someone to do the Doff paint removal on brick.
I’ll buy Torc (or equivalent) kit, and do the outside timber in one go myself. And the internal stuff over the next few years as each room is gutted and the mess isn’t an issue.

I came to quite an amicable agreement with Stonehealth on the purchase / resale and media supply, so this may be my option. Just need to then hire a compressor as required.

Both are very doable yourself, but my Doff requirement is 2 days of removal (once I’ve softened), economics say get someone to do it.

However, the timber cleaning is a bigger task, and the internal complexities mean it’s better for me to purchase and do it, as only external could be done in one hit. This is also where more practice and time to go slower on multiple less aggressive passes is beneficial to the timber - I’m happy to go as slow as I need which contractors are less likely to be…