Roman numerals on joists and spine beam

[masochists-r-us]

whilst replacing modern softwood floor with a new oak one we revealed the roman numerals on the spine beam and joists for the first time (for us). Interestingly, they don't follow the convention we expected i.e. 8 is iiiv and10 is VV. There were a couple of others that were unusual too. What we were wondering is can one date the beams using this info? A quick search suggests not, but wondering if there are any experts out there who can help.

 

[robgil]

They could be marks for matching different parts of the frame together.

 

[masochists-r-us]

They could be marks for matching different parts of the frame together.

That's exactly what they are. What we want to know is does their presence help us date the house and why don't they follow convention for roman numerals. Perhaps the carpenters were uneducated and that's why 8 was expressed as iiiv instead of viii or maybe this is how roman numerals were expressed during 17th Century????

 

[TheForge]

Surely iiiv would be 2?! And vv would be 0?!

I've seen iiiv on other old woodwork as fitting/placement marks but I've no idea what it means.

 

[robgil]

They might not be roman numerals.

 

[TheForge]

A bit of googling and it appears carpenters often worked outwards from the joint mirroring numbers on the timbers either side. So you would have a standard viii opposed by iiiv on the opposite side of the joint.

This doesn't explain the vv but I suspect this was just a colloquialism as often is viiii for 9.

http://www.dbrg.org.uk/Marks/cmarks4.html

 

[skier-hughes]

When Cassie the house historian came to ours that was one thing he looked for, and said that builders all over had differnet "languages" once you'd found the one they were using it was very easy to date the house.
Unfortunately that's all I know at the moment. I'll know more when she reports back, but that's going to be end March/April

 

[oxalto]

A bit of googling and it appears carpenters often worked outwards from the joint mirroring numbers on the timbers either side. So you would have a standard viii opposed by iiiv on the opposite side of the joint.

That's exactly how it works in our house, the pairs of joists being mirror numerals. The only strangeness is that the numbering system doesn't go i, ii, iii etc down the roof, and not all our joists are numbered that way. It seems most likely that our joists are reused from a previous roof. If you don't have a matching pair of mirrored joists, it might be that yours have also been reused, but perhaps having lost their pair.

 

[middi]

Rman numerals were a "standard" carpenter's ( or shipwrights) way of marking timbers of a " prefabricated" bulding or ship section that needed to be transported, or moved, to the final place of assembly ,ie- final building location or dockyard- . Both ends of the matching timbers would have been " stamped" with a numeral No to facilitate sequence of assembly and final position.

T he above was the " unwritten" law of a good carpenter . Unfortunately, as we experience today, builders may have to abide the written law of building regulations but not every building firm, or their employees, are equal in workmanship or of similar education ( which we take for granted). The same would have applied to the " builders" of bygone era, whilst the building skill factor might have been extremely high for a particular carpenter the poor chap , probably, could not even wright his name . The proficiency of all his written knowledge might have extended only as far as roman numeral, the standard " unwritten" qualification needed to do his job to a required or accepted standard for the purpose of assembly.

Speaking from personal experience I have come across timber frame buildings where I identified at least three different people that were involved in the " manufacture" of components. There have been cases where some carpenters would have marked the " matching" sections with numerals written in reverse order or upside down . Obviously lost track of the direction they were facing when marking the components on the ground.
In other cases, and possibly the less academic carpenter, would have just " scored" the matching components especially if these were pre-assembled and then dismantled and moved to another location.

As to dating components from these marks, there is no chance, unless the more literate carpenter decide to put a date on it and possibly his name or initials. If this type of builder or carpenter decided to do that he would have made sure that it would be on a prominent and exposed part of the timber construction where everybody could see it and not hidden out of sight. ( a good example of this is in Felsted, Essex- "the boote house " ( built by mr Boote)

Some carpenter also had their own interpretation of roman numeral ( they just didn't know how to spell !!!!)
AS mentioned, one also has to allow for the use of " reclaimed" timbers or repairs on subsequent repairs that were necessary, ie- half roof blown away in a gale or a fire etc...
Middi

 

[oxalto]

The same would have applied to the " builders" of bygone era, whilst the building skill factor might have been extremely high for a particular carpenter the poor chap , probably, could not even wright his name.
Middi

! Shh -This might wake Penners from his afternoon nap!
On reflection, I think that he's more likely to have been able to wright his name than write it!

 

[middi]

Penners will not miss this opportunity, he relishes them. :wink:

( if you shoot youself in the foot, as in my case above, one can rely on Penners to make sure it is painful , hence no editing required. At his age he needs all the ammunition he can get :wink: )

Middi

 

[LadyArowana]

The same would have applied to the " builders" of bygone era, whilst the building skill factor might have been extremely high for a particular carpenter the poor chap , probably, could not even wright his name.
Middi

! Shh -This might wake Penners from his afternoon nap!

Middi has special dispensation from Mr P as regards spelling, I believe he bribes him with pizza :lol:

 

[middi]

The same would have applied to the " builders" of bygone era, whilst the building skill factor might have been extremely high for a particular carpenter the poor chap , probably, could not even wright his name.
Middi

! Shh -This might wake Penners from his afternoon nap!

Middi has special dispensation from Mr P as regards spelling, I believe he bribes him with pizza :lol:

Nearly right Lady A. Yes I could be bribed with pizza, only if my mother has made it ( at her age, 82, she is still the best)

I have a more noble excuse why my spelling leaves a lot to be desired ( normally only a little),it is because I am a very bad traveller and suffer badly from jet lag . It is 1.00 am in H/Kong, been here fro three days and steel feeling like a zombie. ( Visiting relatives for a couple of weeks and taking the opportunity to evaluate the period architecture if I can locate it through the maize of glass.

Middi

 

[LadyArowana]

I have a more noble excuse why my spelling leaves a lot to be desired ( normally only a little),it is because I am a very bad traveller and suffer badly from jet lag . It is 1.00 am in H/Kong, been here fro three days and steel feeling like a zombie. ( Visiting relatives for a couple of weeks and taking the opportunity to evaluate the period architecture if I can locate it through the maize of glass.

Middi

Gong Xi Fa Cai, enjoy the fireworks! HK is a great place, although I'm not sure there is much in the way of period architecture left ..... and if you do spot some then for goodness sake don't tell anyone or they will be tempted to redevelop it immediately as it has obviously been missed by accident.

 

[Penners]

Middi has special dispensation from Mr P as regards spelling

Quite right. And he shall continue to have this until I can speak Italian as well as he can speak English*.

On the subject of Roman numerals I should add that, while some carpenters used conventional ones, others made up their own versions of them. Sometimes you can find houses where the beams beams are apparently marked with Roman numerals up to a certain point, but then they digress into unintelligible shapes.

Each carpenter had his own "code" for reassembling pre-manufactured frames on site exactly as they had been constructed in his yard. It didn't matter that nobody else could understand them, just so long as he could.

*And even if that day ever came (which it won't), he still has a lifelong "excused spelling" chit, just because he's a great chap.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Wholeheartedy agree Penners - as I read more and more of Middi's excellent and detailed explanation above, I marvelled at how my Italian could never be a tenth as good in a hundred years. I was also reminded just how darned irregular, illogical and difficult English spelling is!

It's one of the things I love most about our rich language!

 

[Feltwell]

I think I've posted this up before but it deserves a repeat. Written in 1992 apparently, it's older than I thought. Am I the only one who can't help but mentally hear this in Pam Ayres dulcet tones?

Eye have a spelling chequer,
It came with my Pea Sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss Steaks I can knot sea.

Eye strike the quays and type a whirred
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am write oar wrong
It tells me straight a weigh.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your shore real glad two no.
Its vary polished in its weigh.
My chequer tolled me sew.

A chequer is a bless thing,
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right all stiles of righting,
And aides me when eye rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen
Eye trussed too bee a joule
The chequer pours o'er every word
Two cheque sum spelling rule

 

[Gareth Hughes]

We'll begin with box, and the plural is boxes,
But the plural of ox should be oxen, not oxes.
Then one fowl is goose, but two are called geese,
Yet the plural of moose should never be meese.
You may find a lone mouse or a whole lot of mice,
But the plural of house is houses, not hice.
If the plural of man is always called men,
Why shouldn't the plural of pan be pen?
The cow in the plural may be cows or kine,
But the plural of vow is vows, not vine.
And I speak of a foot, and you show me your feet,
But I give a boot... would a pair be beet?
If one is a tooth, and a whole set is teeth,
Why shouldn't the plural of booth be beeth?
If the singular is this, and the plural is these,
Why shouldn't the plural of kiss be kese?
Then one may be that, and three be those,
Yet the plural of hat would never be hose.
We speak of a brother, and also of brethren,
But though we say mother, we never say methren.
The masculine pronouns are he, his and him,
But imagine the feminine she, shis, and shim.
So our English, I think you will agree,
Is the trickiest language you ever did see.

 

[tobydog]

"But the plural of house is houses, not hice". Depending on which side of the tracks you come from, or whether you put your milk in before or after the tea, you could argue that the singular for house is also 'hice'!! :wink: .

 

[robgil]

Milk goes in last, tea bag stays in the cup all the way to the end.