Roof repairs versus 'upgrade'

[Flyfisher]

I'm considering dealing with a large roof that is leaking in places. The roof is steeply pitched with Norfolk pan-tiles with reed and plaster (lime presumably) in-fill between the beams, much of which has fallen down over the years leaving the attic space very cold and draughty. Estimates for completely refurbishing the roof, including felting, insulation etc, are horrendous (6 figures).

I read a comment somewhere on PPUK that an attic can never have enough ventilation (a commodity this house has in spades!) so I'm now wondering if it is really necessary to go to the huge expense of virtually re-roofing the entire house or whether to consider simply re-fixing the existing tiles and leaving the attic as it is.

Of course, the roof construction doesn't meet current building regs but I understand this doesn't matter as the house is GII+ anyway. What I clearly must do is to fix the leaks and prevent further water ingress, but is it really necessary to do anything else to 'improve' the roof construction at the same time?

It certainly needs some TLC but as it has survived for over 400 years and the timbers are in pretty good condition, does it really need the benefit of being brought up to date? And whether it does or not, what are the regulatory issues involved?

 

[NT]

If its listed and all it needs is repair, I dont know why youre considering a reroof.

Where do you keep getting these crazy quotes from? 100k+ for a reroof is loopyland.

It can be difficult getting a sensible quote qwhen youve got a large property, if so one option is to pay by the hour on the understanding that they'll only be back for day 2 if they make sensible progress on day 1.


NT

 

[Horace]

Just for comparison, I've recently had a quote for a slate roof to be completely renewed on a largish listed house and the quote came in at £30,000 including the replacement of 6 rooflights at about £750 a throw.

Thats Yorkshire but the expensive bit of the county. £100,000 seems a lot. How big is your house?

 

[Flyfisher]

Crazy quotes? Tell me about it!! How about the (very) thick end of £500k for the entire project?

The house is about 6000 sqft, so yes it's large but it's not in 'stately home' territory. To be fair, these are estimates prior to formal plans being drawn up, so maybe the final work wouldn't be as much (yeah, right!).

Paying by the hour is fine but once they've made 'good progress' in taking all the tiles off it would be a brave person to tell them not to come back anymore because they've slowed down. And I bet the quotes for putting everything back would be even higher!

 

[middi]

I would have thought that repairing any leaks and making sure that the roof is generally sound is a priority.

Having done this, a proper evaluation of a complete roof restoration and Upgrade could be made at some future date if so required.

If the attic is not used as habitation this will benefit by drafty ventilation, albeit extra insulation can be added over the rooms above.

 

[DaveBrigg]

We had estimates for re-roofing our farm house (a little smaller than yours I think) which ranged from £13,500 to £28,000. A lot of the cost was apparently scaffolding and reclaimed slates to replace those that broke during the job - the expensive quote had a figure of 50% damage. We could have just had the loose slates glued back in place for a little over £1000.
The final bill came in at £14,300, which included a breathable liner and replacement of some of the limestone ridges. A few patches of dodgy woodwork were repaired by our builder, and I've had to replace a couple of rotten barge boards. It survived the recent gales unscathed.
The insulation I've done myself so far, costing just over £300, and a few hours crawling through the dirt and cobwebs. Insulation grants are available but we could only find them for if a contractor did the work, and we gave up waiting for them to visit.
Our builder warned us about 'Big House Syndrome', where the tradesman makes a mental note as they approach the front door 'big property, must be loaded, double the estimate'. Sounds like you've got a touch of that yourself.
If you are within commuting distance of Grimsby, I can recommend the company we used.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm clearly talking to the wrong building firms. Grimsby is probably too far to commute to the norfolk/suffolk border but there must be someone closer. Thanks for the info; it keeps encouraging me to keep looking instead of just giving up!

 

[Geoff Flegg]

I've just had the roof re-done on my house, for which the total cost was around the £16k mark. Unless you've got HRH in front of your name and you're re-roofing Sandringham, £500k sounds like a huge sum!

My price was for a 3-storey 5-bed Victorian semi - not huge but it is a complicated roof, with 2 dormer windows, lots of hips and valleys and leadwork etc. New tiles, breathable underlay, included insulating the roof with rigid foam slabs, replacing a rotten dormer window, fitting 3 roof windows, replacing most of the fascia boards, replacing 4 rotten rafters and a few rafter ends, capping off some disused chimney flues and a few other small jobs. Scaffolding is quite a high cost - we needed a lot, it's a tall house and the edge of the roof is at a variety of levels, it cost around £1500 just for this.

One of my work collegaues recently had their little "2 up 2 down" Victorian mid-terrace re-roofed, and that was only about £4k.

 

[Lime]

My house is not particularly large although it has 5 bedrooms.
3 years ago I had the slate roof stripped and replaced for £3,000.
I know a neighbour further up the road (similar house) had her roof replaced 9 years ago.
The slate was taken off and replaced with tiles.
She says she regrets having it done now.
It cost her £8,000.

Shop around is my advice.

 

[NT]

Paying by the hour is fine but once they've made 'good progress' in taking all the tiles off it would be a brave person to tell them not to come back anymore because they've slowed down. And I bet the quotes for putting everything back would be even higher!

why do you need to take all the tiles off?


NT

 

[Flyfisher]

I've just had the roof re-done on my house, for which the total cost was around the £16k mark. Unless you've got HRH in front of your name and you're re-roofing Sandringham, £500k sounds like a huge sum!

Just to clarify, £500k is for the entire project and includes other stuff like £100k for wiring and plumbing mentioned on another thread. I'm waiting for a detailed breakdown and am guessing £100k for the roof because it's the biggest chunk of required work. But I agree these are huge and ridiculous sums as all the replies are suggesting, which is both helpful and encouraging.

why do you need to take all the tiles off?

Because that's what I've been advised. But I take your point - being new to all this I'm beginning to think I've been asking the wrong questions.

 

[DaveBrigg]

We were also advised to take all the slates off, partly because some of the nails were becoming loose, which had caused some slates to slip, and partly to allow the breathable felt and new battens to be fitted. The old battens were not completely rotten, but they would have needed replacing in 10 - 15 years time, so it was best to get everything done at once.

 

[NT]

But I agree these are huge and ridiculous sums as all the replies are suggesting, which is both helpful and encouraging.

I look forward to hearing you did the whole project yourself in 1 year at a cost of 20k. Fancy a £450,000 p.a. paypacket?

why do you need to take all the tiles off?

Because that's what I've been advised. But I take your point - being new to all this I'm beginning to think I've been asking the wrong questions.[/quote]

Been advised by who, and on what grounds? Have you been able to confirm those grounds? Then you can discuss the problem and all the options with us and/or whoever else you choose.

If I were faced with spending half a mill on a house, I certainly wouldnt want to risk spending it unnecessarily. I'd take all the time needed to make sure I'd got all my ducks in a row, was not in doubt about the issues, and was selecting the best of all available options at every turn.

It sounds like youre partway through doing that, just need to follow the whole process through.


NT

 

[Flyfisher]

I look forward to hearing you did the whole project yourself in 1 year at a cost of 20k. Fancy a £450,000 p.a. paypacket?

I look forward to it too . . . if only. But if it does turn out that way (or anywhere near) you'll all be invited to the party!

If I were faced with spending half a mill on a house, I certainly wouldnt want to risk spending it unnecessarily. I'd take all the time needed to make sure I'd got all my ducks in a row, was not in doubt about the issues, and was selecting the best of all available options at every turn.

It sounds like youre partway through doing that, just need to follow the whole process through.

Yes, I'm definitely on the learning curve and learning fast (I hope).

About the only thing I'm not worried about is spending half a mill on the project (he says nonchalantly) because it simply isn't going to happen. In fact, I don't think it would happen even if I could afford it!

I have to say though that I couldn't imagine even considering it without this forum. Books are certainly helpful but they're no substitute for interacting with people who have gone/are going through the same process. Instead of despairing and just giving up when given crazy estimates it's very encouraging to hear of real examples where similar work seems to have been done for sensible prices, which makes me realise I just need to keep looking for the right contacts.

 

[NT]

I look forward to hearing you did the whole project yourself in 1 year at a cost of 20k. Fancy a £450,000 p.a. paypacket?

I look forward to it too . . . if only. But if it does turn out that way (or anywhere near) you'll all be invited to the party!

Well, I look forward to the result, as I get the impression you're going to save a lot of money and get a lot done either way.

I have to say though that I couldn't imagine even considering it without this forum. Books are certainly helpful but they're no substitute for interacting with people who have gone/are going through the same process. Instead of despairing and just giving up when given crazy estimates it's very encouraging to hear of real examples where similar work seems to have been done for sensible prices,

I so agree. Being online has taught me loads, plus given me the confidence to tackle things I hadn't done before.

So if you read in the papers 'NT found dead under collapsed house' you'll know why!

which makes me realise I just need to keep looking for the right contacts.

And I think you'll find them once you're crystal clear about what exactly you need doing. For that you need to look at the roof close up and tell us just what the problems are. Its all been too vague so far.


NT

 

[NT]

Old roofs routinely have many small holes, and its not a problem. A little rain blows in now and then, and the ventilation quickly dries it out afterwards, and thats the way its always been.

Builders obviosly want to maximise their income, why charge £250 if they can easily persuade you to give them 4k.

Just a couple of points to bear in mind.

If you were to do a loft conversion, then really some kind of felt is needed, but sieve like roofs are fine when the insulation is on the loft floor.


NT

 

[Jane Smith]

Incidentally, when ever it snows we get little snow drifts in the attic. Which then melt and drip through the ceilings. Full of character, these old houses. And full of wet pendant light fittings.

 

[Willmat]

we recently reroofed our 4 or so bedroom Norfolk pantile mill house. Though the house had been refelted 30 or 40 years ago or so and the upper half of each roof was fine so we only refelted the lower half or third with breathable felt - i.e. limiting the work to what needed doing.

I even went so far as to take the only insulation out (loft floor) when I was clearing out the loft and never got round to replacing and if anything the clay lump house with single glazed windows is too warm! The loft must probably also be the shallowest loft ever - crawl in and crawl back out great escape style which probably just means I'm scared to go back in. It is a little bit breezy but all the wood is intact and looks fine and little if any water seems to come in.

could pass on the details for the roofers details if you like - based near Long Stratton. The other quotes we got were all about the same. Also know a very good general builder near Watton but he always seems to be a year in advance which is a good sign for his work but not for waiting.

For comparison the house is at least half the size but gutters, lead work, barge boards etc (we supplied the oak), minor chimney, half the roof was c. £6000 (plus a little more for 4 skylights) and similarly for a complete reroof of a fairly large barn/cart house with breather membrane and slab insulation over the rafters to leave the rafters exposed.

We also found breaking all the jobs down so we did what time allowed/we could manage and getting in contractors where necessary. I suppose this changes with larger scale projects and a desire not to live in a building site for months and varies how much people take on themselves.

Best to take lots of photos so you can look back in a year ot two's time - living on plastic chairs, 1 tiny table, with no hot water, no heating, 4" tv, only a barbecue and all in winter...ahh the life.

Will

 

[jaykay]

The house we're buying has a stone slate roof that leaks in places - it's the original, people think (1780) though a barn for most of it's life so not considered valuable. Certainly not listed.
The structural engineer, experienced in such buildings, we had look round it has said it needs a 'light refurbishment' and given details of this, rather than replacing the roof, even though it is decidedly wavy, with holes in.

Has someone similar looked over your house - the 500 pounds was well spent in our case I think otherwise I'd have been considering 30K of new roof.

 

[Flyfisher]

Has someone similar looked over your house - the 500 pounds was well spent in our case I think otherwise I'd have been considering 30K of new roof.

We've had two structural surveys so far so I think we're confident about the state it's in - it's getting what I consider to be a sensible estimate to fix it that's the problem.

Of course, 'sensible' can be a subjective term. If I was Bill Gates I would already have the builders in because anything is possible given enough money (man on the moon anyone?). In my case, 'sensible' means within my budget, which I thought was ridiculously high in the first place but is perhaps turning out to be rather tight for the challenge ahead. I don't like to be beaten but I'm thinking more in terms of 'financial disaster' than 'opportunity' at the moment.