Suggestions For This Chimney Breast

[aockenden]

Ok, I’ve been hacking off yet more thick cement render, and started exposing this large chimney breast / fireplace and this is what I’m working with. It’s a proper mess.

As you might be able to tell, it’s built with a mixture of red brick and stone (on the edges). There are 2 openings, the brick arch on the right which seems to be pointed in cement and has a strange iron reinforcing strap on the underside (I'm wondering if this was rebuilt at some point in the relatively recent past), and some kind of bricked up oven thing (bread oven?) on the left. There is a dinky little “shoulder” on the left side of the structure. The hearth where the woodburner is currently sitting is in a terrible state (random, non-matching and loose and cracked tiles, broken cement pointing between them, etc.) and it sticks way out into the room which ruins a lot of the room’s floor space. Lastly, there’s a structural joist timber sitting above the masonry with rad-pipes attached at a level LOWER than our final inter-joist ceiling board height.

Assuming no restrictions on anything, how would YOU holistically clean up this mess and make it attractive and functional again?

 

[a twig]

If you aren’t worried about keeping the historic fabric I would create a much larger opening with a new lintel for the stove to sit in so the glue is completely internal and re-route the water pipe work down the right hand side and in through the side of the chimney breast so it is all tucked neatly away

 

[aockenden]

If you aren’t worried about keeping the historic fabric I would create a much larger opening with a new lintel for the stove to sit in so the glue is completely internal and re-route the water pipe work down the right hand side and in through the side of the chimney breast so it is all tucked neatly away

So in other words, basically turn it into a big inglenook? That’s what my wife is thinking as well. Would you keep the stone and brick exposed and just repoint (given the weird mix materials)? Or render the whole thing in lime?

We’ll probably disconnect the back boiler pipes regardless because we’re likely going for a heat pump.

 

[Lacan07]

It would be a shame to loose the bread oven, I'd be tempted to open up the right hand side for the wood burner to be recessed in to and then open up the little bread oven. I would lime plaster the lot with the exception of the new lintel and the soldiers / arch above the bread oven opening. Leave the interior of the openings as brick.

Don't forget to cow sh*t the base coat if you see any salts that follow the line of the flue.

I'm guessing you'll have to get building control involved unfortunately

 

[a twig]

BC don’t need to know if it was “always like that”

Yep I’d lime plaster the whole thing either way

 

[Lacan07]

BC don’t need to know if it was “always like that”

Yep I’d lime plaster the whole thing either way

Ok but make sure you dig out the specs of the wood burner if you do inset it into the wall, correct distances need to be observed and especially at the back as you need a certain amount of airflow to bring the heat out and into the room. Is worth reading the J regs to check the hearth is up to scratch too.

 

[a twig]

100% agree - irrelevant of BC involvement it’s always important to do your research, understand what’s required and ensure you do a decent and safe job

 

[aockenden]

It would be a shame to loose the bread oven, I'd be tempted to open up the right hand side for the wood burner to be recessed in to and then open up the little bread oven. I would lime plaster the lot with the exception of the new lintel and the soldiers / arch above the bread oven opening. Leave the interior of the openings as brick.

Don't forget to cow sh*t the base coat if you see any salts that follow the line of the flue.

I'm guessing you'll have to get building control involved unfortunately

I agree, I like the bread oven too and would love to find a way to keep it. The existing woodburner is so big that I think we might need to downsize it to fit it into a newly opened space without destroying the bread oven.

In terms of building control, I was expecting to need a HETAS engineer to sign-off on the reinstalled woodburner (and hearth etc) but given that the house isn’t listed I wasn’t expecting the need to involve building control.

I think you’re both right about plastering it. I had considered trying to leave the quoin-stones exposed and plaster everything else (except the lintels / soldiers and interiors of the openings as you suggested), but idk how to handle that weird little shoulder on the left side… or the other option is to just repoint and limewash everything but the different shapes of the bricks vs the stones will still be visible.

 

[a twig]

Sorry I’m just slightly sceptical of BC ever since I did a single story extension on good ground with no clay and the inspector required 1.9m foundations despite me having multiple soil samples and structural engineer calcs that proved 600mm was plenty.

His argument was that he was protecting me, in reality he just cost me a fortune, what should have been £6k to get out the ground turned into £17k

 

[a twig]

I agree, I like the bread oven too and would love to find a way to keep it. The existing woodburner is so big that I think we might need to downsize it to fit it into a newly opened space without destroying the bread oven.

In terms of building control, I was expecting to need a HETAS engineer to sign-off on the reinstalled woodburner (and hearth etc) but given that the house isn’t listed I wasn’t expecting the need to involve building control.

If you’re staying under the original builders opening then BC won’t be interested, if you have to create an entirely new lintel and opening they might be

 

[aockenden]

If you’re staying under the original builders opening then BC won’t be interested, if you have to create an entirely new lintel and opening they might be

Hmmmm ok, I mean I’ve paid builders to replace rotten timber lintels on the outside face of our walls with new stone ones and I never asked for any permission or sign-off. We just did it and the builders never mentioned building control either. I also widened all our window reveals back to an earlier stage after they had been narrowed at sone point post-war. I did that myself and again never asked for permission or got any sign-off.

 

[aockenden]

Sorry I’m just slightly sceptical of BC ever since I did a single story extension on good ground with no clay and the inspector required 1.9m foundations despite me having multiple soil samples and structural engineer calcs that proved 600mm was plenty.

His argument was that he was protecting me, in reality he just cost me a fortune, what should have been £6k to get out the ground turned into £17k

I love when other people protect me from me… don’t you?!

 

[housewinnie]

I would try and open u the bread oven and then keep the openings as is. How big is the room. And then sit the new wood burner in front. Then knock off all the existing plaster and leave exposed bricks. I like the rustic look. Is that the original hearth

 

[stuart45]

Sorry I’m just slightly sceptical of BC ever since I did a single story extension on good ground with no clay and the inspector required 1.9m foundations despite me having multiple soil samples and structural engineer calcs that proved 600mm was plenty.

His argument was that he was protecting me, in reality he just cost me a fortune, what should have been £6k to get out the ground turned into £17k

What was his reasoning for making you go that deep? Was he an LABC, or private?

 

[Lacan07]

I agree, I like the bread oven too and would love to find a way to keep it. The existing woodburner is so big that I think we might need to downsize it to fit it into a newly opened space without destroying the bread oven.

In terms of building control, I was expecting to need a HETAS engineer to sign-off on the reinstalled woodburner (and hearth etc) but given that the house isn’t listed I wasn’t expecting the need to involve building control.

I think you’re both right about plastering it. I had considered trying to leave the quoin-stones exposed and plaster everything else (except the lintels / soldiers and interiors of the openings as you suggested), but idk how to handle that weird little shoulder on the left side… or the other option is to just repoint and limewash everything but the different shapes of the bricks vs the stones will still be visible.

Apologies, it seems I may have got the wrong end of the stick, if you're going to employ a HETAS engineer thats obviously fine but for some reason I was assuming you were planning on doing the work yourself! Hiring a HETAS engineer is obviously the expensive route (especially where I live!) And if they sign it off they'll want to be the ones that did the work so bear in mind they'll be no discounts to be had.

 

[aockenden]

Apologies, it seems I may have got the wrong end of the stick, if you're going to employ a HETAS engineer thats obviously fine but for some reason I was assuming you were planning on doing the work yourself! Hiring a HETAS engineer is obviously the expensive route (especially where I live!) And if they sign it off they'll want to be the ones that did the work so bear in mind they'll be no discounts to be had.

I’d only be doing the rest of the cement removal, maybe opening up the bread-oven, maybe building-up the shoulder on the left side, and then the plastering.

 

[aockenden]

I would try and open u the bread oven and then keep the openings as is. How big is the room. And then sit the new wood burner in front. Then knock off all the existing plaster and leave exposed bricks. I like the rustic look. Is that the original hearth

It’s about 4x5 meters. When you say “sit the new wood burner in front”, so you mean “in front” like the current one already is?

I’m like 90% sure it’s not the original hearth.

 

[Lacan07]

Hmmmm ok, I mean I’ve paid builders to replace rotten timber lintels on the outside face of our walls with new stone ones and I never asked for any permission or sign-off. We just did it and the builders never mentioned building control either. I also widened all our window reveals back to an earlier stage after they had been narrowed at sone point post-war. I did that myself and again never asked for permission or got any sign-off.

I don't think BC will be interested ordinarily in something like this unless, as I said above, you were doing the work yourself and needed it signed off. They have an obligation to oversee and inspect DIY wood burner installs when requested but they tend to try and avoid it as its a lot of work for them. The advantages of using a HETAS engineer for your reinstall is you don't know how bad the original install was and he'll let way more pass that BC.

 

[malcolm]

From the brick colour above the openings I would guess they are not original. There's not enough space to get a woodburner in and retain the bread oven. I would knock them both out and build a suitable opening for the woodburner.

People get very fussy about lintels and things. All of my fireplaces are supported by a brick arch with no additional lintel. Seems to work - the arch only needs to support the triangle of bricks above it.

 

[aockenden]

From the brick colour above the openings I would guess they are not original. There's not enough space to get a woodburner in and retain the bread oven. I would knock them both out and build a suitable opening for the woodburner.

People get very fussy about lintels and things. All of my fireplaces are supported by a brick arch with no additional lintel. Seems to work - the arch only needs to support the triangle of bricks above it.

There is a significant difference in the mortars between the two openings. The soldiers and all the side-bricks on the brick oven are bedded in a very soft lime + clay mortar which is common on the deepest layers of building fabric throughout the house. The other opening however seems to be mortared together with a semi-modern Portland cement. So if I had to guess I’d say the brick oven might be original.

I do like the brick arch look as an alternative to a lintel. What say you on plastering vs limewashing vs exposed re-pointing?