Unimportant Hidden Features *PIC*

[Anonymous]

Hello #51

Dovetailed Meeting Rail. Georgian Period.

The strongest of joints but difficult and time consuming to construct = Expensive.

Hidden from view, but does this make it unimportant?.

 

[Anonymous]

No, hidden from view does not make it unimportant, in fact many of us here repair features of our houses to a traditional standard even though they may not be seen. Detail is important.

However - I'm not surprised that a Conservation Officer is unconcerned with sash pockets, but regards the correct detailing of glazing bars to be important. A sash pocket can only be seen in close up and perhaps only then if you scrape layers of paint away, so it hardly matters from an architectural detail point of view if you screwed a piece of plywood in - though it would be shame if someone did.

Didn't you say something along the lines of everyone has their budget, not everyone can afford the 'superior' methods of construction ?

COs that vist here aren't in any doubt about what they are but a picture would still be helpful !

 

[Anonymous]

Most CO's that I know are overworked and involved with so much on a mega scale trying to prevent the wholesale neglect and destruction of the wider historic environment that any one not wanting to put in uPVC will be greeted with joy. The detail such as this is not really relevant to the work of most CO's, however important it may be in joinery terms, in the smooth operation of fitting and, in future years, repairing windows.

I have windows with sash pockets, without sash pockets and without even weights - the windows simply slide up and down in the frame. All part of the house history. The 'grand' windows with the sash pockets are in the Georgian part, and on the front elevation.

 

[Anonymous]

Im surprised with you # 51.

A sash meeting rail is also painted, so how would a c/o know what laid beneath the paint?

With respect, I have yet to meet a conservation officer who new what one was. Its for this reason that the dovetail was cheapened into slotted tenons with a dowel. The Victorians period saw the chaning styles until the Bracket was used both inside & outside which puts an end to the claim that they were used as a prettying method. It was because the through mortice & tenon sash bars gave torsional strength to the whole sash, when removed the sash relies only on its corner joints and as a slotted tenon is weak without sash bars the bracket became the only quick method of construction.

Sash bars can be cut in three ways mitering, which means that a mitre is cut on the end of the sash giving the profile of the (normally) Q.R profile, this would be removed by a chisel. The scribe method involves offering the sash up to one another by the cut mortice and tenon and then using a scribing tool set so that it touches the profile of the main sash bar . The scibe is then passed to the sash bar to be cut.

The masons cut is complicated and is used for the best class of work. It is again very time consuming and therefore expensive. It is the Best method.

The same reasoning applies to the sash pocket. This has also been cheapened not by the Georgians or Victorians who could cut a sash pocket but by 20th century tradesmen who can't.

As for sash bars there are five types of profile in many different sizes and the size is the only difference between them, this is because of the different geometry used by the plane makers.

The sash profiles are, Quarter Round. Oveloe. O.G. Astragal & Cove. Astragal & O.G.

I hope you find the info useful.

 

[Anonymous]

The same applies to much of today’s traditional slate, stone and clay tile roofing output Phil!

Generally, you will find that as long as the one third of a roof that can be seen is looking fairly reasonable, then the rest of it is often deemed to be all right too, no matter how inexpertly laid (in this particular case ‘underfelt’ can conceal mistakes – for a while!).

Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure what you're surprised about - that I can understand that COs don't know what a sash pocket is ? Or that I mentioned plywood to illustrate a point ?

Let's get back to the original misunderstanding that caused so much grief. You agreed with me that it's legitimate to cater for differing customers' requirements, you called it common and superior which I think was misread as poor workmanship and good. Now you're saying that the reason that dovetails were 'cheapened' into slotted tenons with a dowel, is because COs don't know the difference ? Is that really true ? Why isn't it because someone couldn't afford the superior type, which you say is OK ?

The other stuff is interesting. The mitred sash bars - is it just the moulding that's mitred, or the complete end ? how prevalent are the mitred ones ?

 

[Anonymous]

Hello #51

The Georgian & certainly Victorians didn't charge extra for correctly cut sash pockets. The design is so important even the Victorian tradesmen and architects would not consider changing it for anything else.

All our sash windows have properly cut sash pockets, whether they are of a common class or superior sash.



centre pocket 1

 

[Anonymous]

OK, they all have traditionally cut sash pockets; do they all have dovetailed meeting rails ? If not, what is it that distinguishes them ?

 

[Anonymous]

central pocket



http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/

 

[Anonymous]

centre pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd005.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

offset pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd010.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

The job of a CO is not to supervise every tiny detail on a repair. I'm sure many wish they had this sort of time, and authority, but they don't. Also - they will have their own specialities, and cannot know every detail about everything. It's not fair to expect that.

Many local authorities don't even have CO's.

 

[Anonymous]

offset pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd011.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

offset pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd012.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

offset pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd013.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

Cheap bevel cut sash pocket


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd008.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/PhilJoiner/SashAd009.jpg

 

[Anonymous]

I think it needs to be understood that 'common' means of the many. While superior means of the few. It does not mean class distinction.

The Victorian (early Victorian tradesmen) cheapened dovetail meeting rails because they understood that a slotted tenon & dowelled meeting rail combined with the sash bar mortice and tenons would hold a sash together.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it needs to be understood that 'common' means of the many. While superior means of the few. It does not mean class distinction.

The Victorian (early Victorian tradesmen) cheapened dovetail meeting rails because they understood that a slotted tenon & dowelled meeting rail combined with the sash bar mortice and tenons would hold a sash together.

 

[Anonymous]

The whole construction is better.

The linings are thicker 3/4 " compared to 9/16

The pulley linings are 1 1/4" compared to 7/8th

Superior.
The pulley lining and int/ext linings are tounged/matched to avoid movement and casting.

Common.
are nailed on.

I could go on and on but its sufficient to say that the difference is vast.