What to do about cottage door?

[pineapple]

Hello, my house is an unlisted cottage nearly 300 years old - not in a conservation area.
The front door is low and wide tongue and groove - bare wood with crossbars on the inside and with some awful varnish or brown paint on the outside. The door is sound apart from a little bit of rot on the bottom which can be sorted. The problem is that it doesn't sit flush with the door jamb and it gets worse as you go up. I can see daylight over the top! I think possibly the door frame isn't square anyway. In the recent winter weather it was impossible to completely plug the icy draughts all round the door. Plus of course mice can get in.
I've had a couple of joiners look at it and they just say I need a new door!
Also the lock is no longer fit for purpose and I have to leave a casement window open in case it locks me out and I have to climb in! Locksmiths can't repair it - it's antique in itself and because of the way the door sits, they say a new lock can't be fitted.
I suppose I could go with a new replica door and frame as close as possible to the original. But what on earth do people do when their property is listed? When joiners say it can't be fixed, I don't know whether that's just code for 'don't want the work'.
I rather like the quirky wonky look and it will look lovely when renovated but in my case character comes with icy blasts and I've had mice twice now (next to a farm and near a river). Plus the solid door makes the interior even darker. I've thought of a compromise but don't know if it would be contravening any building regs or indeed if it is totally bonkers. There is about 16cm of stone reveal on the outside. So what about keeping the existing door and having another frame fitted with a French door opening outwards? (onto the patio). I could have a decent lock fitted and moreover in winter I could open the original door (inwards) keeping the new door closed but with the light coming through. Opinions?

 

[MikeG]

A photo would really help before commenting on this. It sounds as though you have a proper old door. Are the nails folded over (cinched) on the inside? I presume there are 4 ledges (the horizontal members internally). Don't worry about the external finish, as that can be easily removed.

If it is old or even original, I would definitely try to find a way to make it work, and although the door might need some work, it sounds as though the frame does as well. Again, photos would really help. Does it have planted on stops, or does the door sit in a rebate? What sort of hinges does it have?

The lock puzzles (and somewhat annoys) me. No locksmith worth his salt should say that any of those old rim locks is beyond repair. They are the simplest bit of mechanical stuff on the planet, and with a few scraps of metal, a set of files and a vice you could probably repair it yourself. No lock is an excuse to throw away a door though. I'll guarantee that even if you cant repair the lock, that a suitable replacement can be found.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Would it not be possible to add a strip of wood to the rebate shaped to fit the curve of the door? Or perhaps move the hinges a little to even out the warping so there is a gap on both sides but smaller than the one you have? My door is a bit warped too but as it is the outer door of a small vestibule I don't mind. I also have a very old rim latch. I don't use it as I don't have the key, and as it is a very simple, I don't think it would offer much security. I just leave it on the latch! I have added a mortice lock too and a modern nightlatch. I would imagine it would be possible to fit another lock or two without damaging the door too much. That seems better than replacing the old lock. I'm sure there must be rimlocks that offer modern levels of security of a mortice isn't possible.

 

[88v8]

I bought a C18 oak door, clench nails, from a chap with a GII in Ripley. He listed it on eBay as being old and wonky.
No one else bid so I got it for £10.
He'd replaced it with a ghastly 'replica'.
It is indeed wonky, warped and bowed. I wanted it for my garage workshop, I made an oak frame to fit it and made the jambs curved to fit the bow.
There is nothing that can't be fixed with suitable skill. The limitation is that you need a door while the fixing is going on.

The people you've had round are either incompetent or can't be bothered. Or perhaps they can be bothered but think you won't want to pay.

Pictures are good. There is a size limit of errrm...

As regards the double door idea, 6" is plenty for a new frame so that might indeed be an ingenious solution.
If you really mean French door, ie a pair, they are not easy to burglar-proof. We had a set made for our previous house, laminated glass and mortice rack bolts, dog bolts for the hinges, and a five lever with rebate set, but the overlap is always susceptible to being jemmied. May or may not be a consideration.

Ivor

 

[pineapple]

Thanks folks. I'll try and get some pics. The only reason I didn't post some some in the first place is that the camera is a bit temperamental. I'm not shy of spending money on repairs. A new bespoke door would probably cost upwards of £1000 anyway.
The lock says Yale Junior though the key is not what I think of as a Yale key. It's an old fashioned mortice type key. The catch doesn't always hit the corresponding (ancient) fixing on the door jamb. Partly because the lock has dropped a bit but also you really have to push/pull the door to make sure it catches because the door doesn't sit flush with the frame. Raise the lock a little would sort some of this. The other issue is that the interior button - sorry I don't know the name for it - that you raise for unlocked and drop for locked - sometimes drops of it's own accord. On occasion it has dropped behind me as I shut the door on leaving which means I can't get back in and sometimes the whole thing seems to jam :roll:
Re the 'french door', I was thinking a single pane of glass - though on reflection it probably wouldn't be possible to have such a large single pane of glass in a door.

 

[88v8]

The button is called the snib. The snib is on a tension washer or spring. Take the lock apart and I think you'll find you can adjust the tension or replace the spring.

That's a pretty modern lock you have there. Should be no problem replacing or repairing it.
Adjusting the meet of the lock and receiver is a DIY job, plug the screw holes, redrill, adjust the mortice.

Single pane of glass? Modern, ghastly. Imho

Many locks here. Including some that are not unsuitable for a Period Property. Helpful chap. If you send him a pic he may be able to point to a direct replacement.
https://www.lockmonster.co.uk/

Ivor

 

[pineapple]

Here are some pics!






More to follow

 

[pineapple]

 

[pineapple]

 

[MikeG]

Definitely worth saving although it is almost certainly not the original door. It is old, hand-made, and in decent nick. Anyone who says that door needs replacing doesn't know what they are talking about. It needs adjusting, that's all. The door obviously has a gap at the top of the leading edge, but what about the hinge edge? Does that fit close to the door stop?

It would be really helpful if you could take a picture or two of the door frame with the door open, and also a picture of the pin hinges with the door open.

 

[plasticpigeon]

Interesting. I was expecting a much older lock. Not sure when yours is from. The 1960s perhaps? Here is my Edwardian nightlatch or whatever it was called. It is a rimlock, but with a bolt that can be opened with a key from the outside like a modern Yale type. I never put the keep on as I don't use it, but I didn't want to junk it either. The door looks newer to me too, but it looks well made, and especially from the outside, fits in really nicely with the rest of your property im my opinion. I'm sure it can all be repaired. I wouldn't stress about the lock. Get something else that does the job if you can't fix it, or at least raise it up a bit to fit the keep better, it is no good leaving a window open so as not to get locked out!!!

 

[pineapple]

Thanks
This is the cottage to give you an idea. The lounge is tidier these days but as you see there is no hall so the door needs to be as airtight as possible. Plus you can see why it's dark!
Unfortunately I'm in a rural area where tradespeople are thin on the ground and have so much work they can pretty much pick and choose. Builders in particular can be booked up a year in advance! It's easier to suck in their teeth and say 'Needs a new one' than to mess around with repairs.
The locksmith said he would probably need a similar lock for parts and said he would 'look out for one' before returning to move the lock - as he disappeared never to be seen again. :roll:
Not sure I could find an new lock to accommodate the discrepancy between door and frame?

 

[MikeG]

.....Not sure I could find an new lock to accommodate the discrepancy between door and frame?

Get me the photos I mentioned and we'll get rid of the "discrepancy".

 

[Flyfisher]

We have a few doors that have been altered to adapt to wonky door frames, as shown in these two photos. I have no idea how the frames became so wonky in the first place or when the doors were altered, but it wasn't within living memory of anyone I've spoken to about the house.

I'm sure something similar could be done to the OP's frame or door to ensure a better fit, although I accept that fully draught-proofing it might be something of a challenge (ours are internal doors so draught-proofing is less of an issue.

As for the lock, period locks are all very nice but they rarely provide the same level of security of a modern lock (as usually demanded by insurance companies). Again, for internal doors it's not really an issue but an external door is a different matter. If it's not a 'final exit' door then suitable bolts can be used to provide extra security but for the 'final exit' door a modern deadlock is usually required by insurance companies - at least all the ones I've ever dealt with. That's no reason to remove a period lock of course, just a reason to add another one.

 

[Feltwell]

Nice door but have others have said definitely not original. Looking at the timber and how it's made I'd say it's late Victorian / Edwardian, but with the hinges and Suffolk latch reused from the original door, they look much older. Possible to make it draft proof? Yes, but (fairly obviously as you've got a ruddy great gap) not invisibly!

You could plant some new timber round the inside of the original frame, that sits square onto the face of the door - this could be quite thin so as not to be too visually intrusive, it's not needed for security. Fit a modern compression seal to the inner face of that new timber, where it pushes against the outer face of the door (see the Reddiseals website - loads on there) and it would seal well. You may even get away with a staff bead meant for a sash window, if they're big enough to cover the gap - fitted with a bubble seal rather than a brush seal. That sorts the sides and top, difficult to say what is needed at the bottom as hard to see on your pictures, possibly a threshold bar of some sort.

The lock? Not very old and not even original to that door, you can see the old keyhole on the inside! It's machine stamped, you can see "Yale Junior" on the inside, I'd guess it's a cheap lock from the 1960's. Could the problem be that it's just badly fitted relative to the keep on the frame? It maybe that it just needs the keep moving and then taking apart and cleaning, it may be worn out and need replacing, I wouldn't get too hung up on it though myself, it's not old and keeping your house secure is more important - I don't think that lock will ever offer much security. I also see no reason at all why a new lock couldn't be fitted there, no idea what your locksmith was on about.

Whereabouts in the country are you? You need a Joiner with a bit more imagination than "rip it out and start again". Most are too used to owners who want things to look perfect and new!

I don't like your "2nd door" idea at all - that will look awful I think, to give a blunt view! Sorry!

 

[88v8]

Nice door. Nice unmessed cottage as far as one can see.

DIY job for me, fixing that door. How's your skill level?

This expanding seal is excellent for uneven gaps, it has very high conformity.
http://affixit.co.uk/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&zenid=f29baa6ad7102bf8004caa49930f45da&keyword=expanding&x=27&y=12
I put it on both our doors, although I left a gap on the hinge stile to ensure we still have that distributed ventilation that is so important to the period house. One can see daylight on that side, but only during the day.

Your door is however not quite at the seals stage yet. A little work to do on the jambs and lock.

Plenty of surface locks on that site I flagged.
They also have surface boxes into which one can insert an insurance-level 5-lever.
https://www.lockmonster.co.uk/item/rim-lock-conversion-box-for-chubb-deadlocks
Affix with coach bolts, which will be inoffensive once painted.
It comes with a receptacle for the frame. Affix with coach screws.

Edit your profile to show your location. That may assist in recommending local tradesmen.

As regards the darkness, or cosiness as I would put it, you could insert a small diamond window in the top of the door. Or if you are near the seaside, beside the sea, a porthole.
Agree with Feltwell that the second door idea is best left in the realms of imagination.

Ivor

 

[CliffordPope]

FWIW my take would be:

1) You can sometimes straighten a large piece of wood, even a door, by steaming, if you really want to. Take it off, put it inside a large polythene bag, eg the kind of thing a mattress comes in, and force it flat, or as near flat as you can get it, using G-clamps and a piece of stout timber diagonally across with a block of wood in the middle.
Then connect it to a wallpaper steamer for half an hour or as long as necessary, tightening the clamps as required. When flat, or a bit more, turn off and allow to cool.

2) Alternatively, adjust the frame by fitting a long wedge-shaped piece of wood to bring the frame out to align with the door. It looks neater if you do this on the hinge edge not the swinging one. Effectively you are padding out one of the hinges away from the frame and twisting the door until the lock edge lines up.

 

[MikeG]

I wouldn't bother with steaming. It is so hit and miss, and such a faff. Incidentally, you have to force it into twist the opposite way to which is twisted now, so that it can then relax back to flat, in theory. However, as CliffordPope says, there are very few twisted doors which can't be adjusted to fit. The best way is by adjusting the hinges and the door stops, which is why I keep asking for photos of these. If you can take up some of the movement by adjusting the hinges, and the rest by adjusting (re-planting) the stops, then you'll have a nice tight door for next winter. But without seeing exactly how the hinges are, and exactly the construction of the stops, I'm struggling to give the specific advise that's needed.

 

[pineapple]

Thanks folks. I'll post more pics. Another joiner has now taken a look at it, sucked in his teeth and said the only solution is replacement. It goes without saying that he can make a replacement tongue and groove type door. The cost, including a new door frame and lock, would be around £1,200
I don't know why they couldn't fit a new lock. Will try to get another locksmith out though I'm in an empty(ish) part of Cumbria and tradespeople are thin on the ground here.
Just wondering whether I couldn't bodge the gaps by building up the thickness of the door frame in the worst areas with wood filler?

 

[Me!]

Please do not listen to (or employ) anyone who tells you that you need a new door and / or a new frame.
The problem you have there really is quite an easy fix, and if you can give us some more photos there are several people on this forum who will be able to give you a lot more information on how it can be fixed.
From what I can see so far, it really doesn't look like any more than a few hours work required.