Radiators vs timber frame…

[Kearn]

we’re at that stage of getting to putting stuff back into our project (mostly!) - most first fix plumbing is there, we know what size and where rads will go, but… mounting mechanisms are currently throwing me this week’s curveball that I haven’t allowed enough time for!

Rads for me fall into two camps, ones that are self supporting and stand on the floor and those that need to be hung via brackets on walls.
Ideally it feels like I need the love child of both, top mounted brackets onto a timber rail and supporting feet to go on the floor.

I can only do cast free standing downstairs where weight can be managed safely on solid floors. Everywhere else, will need to be wall mounted or light enough to free stand.

My challenge is that mounting brackets need to be in set locations and are usually immovable on the rad, which doesn’t align with our timber frame. I can’t get two adjacent posts to work in most settings, and would only be able to mount on one horizontal rail, near the top of the rad but nothing lower down.

There are some steel (relatively lighter) column rads which have clamping brackets which can be moved (a bit) but I don’t personally trust the whole weight of a full rad being pulled into the wall.

So, how have any of you with timber frames dealt with rads?

Of course, it’s doesn’t help that we need to reach pretty hefty Wattage requirements given the volume and construction of rooms, which means heavy rads or more thinner ones…!

 

[paulc]

There are some steel (relatively lighter) column rads which have clamping brackets which can be moved (a bit) but I don’t personally trust the whole weight of a full rad being pulled into the wall.

So, how have any of you with timber frames dealt with rads?

Whilst not exactly timber framed, I've had fun & games mounting a couple of radiators on a stud wall. Got one bracket securely screwed to a vertical stud and had to fix a length of 3x2 at the right distance for the second bracket. The wall was then covered with plasterboard (tar & feather me later guys) to hide the extra timber. Perhaps something similar could work for you.

 

[Kearn]

Whilst not exactly timber framed, I've had fun & games mounting a couple of radiators on a stud wall. Got one bracket securely screwed to a vertical stud and had to fix a length of 3x2 at the right distance for the second bracket. The wall was then covered with plasterboard (tar & feather me later guys) to hide the extra timber. Perhaps something similar could work for you.

Sadly not, all timber frame is visible, staves, wattles and daub between, bar some new fangled woodwool/fibre sandwiches, so the only solid mounting points are the oak rails and posts….

 

[aockenden]

Yeah after multiple sketchy games trying to hang rads plumb and level onto undulating organic plastered stone walls I said “sod this” and decided to replace every cheap Chinese wall-bracket mounted rad with proper floor stand cast irons (with one single masonry stay / bolt through the middle of the vertical rad sections to tie to the wall behind to avoid tipping). Brutally heavy to get up the stairs and in place but once there they were laughably easy to actually mount. I’ve never looked back since.

Out of curiosity, why won’t those work for you upstairs? You say it’s a weight problem? I mean, most of them weigh less than a human male adult unless your room is huge and you need a really big one, or maybe you’re down the heat-pump route and you feel they need to be oversized to dump enough heat? In any event, it seems like a sound floor should be able to handle it?

 

[Kearn]

Yeah after multiple sketchy games trying to hang rads plumb and level onto undulating organic plastered stone walls I said “sod this” and decided to replace every cheap Chinese wall-bracket mounted rad with proper floor stand cast irons (with one single masonry stay / bolt through the middle of the vertical rad sections to tie to the wall behind to avoid tipping). Brutally heavy to get up the stairs and in place but once there they were laughably easy to actually mount. I’ve never looked back since.

Out of curiosity, why won’t those work for you upstairs? You say it’s a weight problem? I mean, most of them weigh less than a human male adult unless your room is huge and you need a really big one, or maybe you’re down the heat-pump route and you feel they need to be oversized to dump enough heat? In any event, it seems like a sound floor should be able to handle it?

It’s my default really, as you say, aside the swearing to get them in, they just sit! However, access up stairs is terrible, not all floor locations I would want to point load with in excess of 100kg and yes, we do have some massive rooms and poor insulation requiring at least 2, so they need to be big, otherwise I’d have a room full of little rads!
Certainly no pointless heat pump here!

There also the cost consideration as always, as we have a lot of volume to heat…

 

[Cubist]

Fortunately I was spared this challenge as the CH system was fully operational when we arrived, however, that has not stopped me occasionally puzzling - 'Whaaaat!? Whyyy? - did the installer Do That and That Way!' and in particular the arcane and mountain road like routing of the service pipes.

All our rads on the upper floor are internal wall mounted and the service pipes are housed beneath the floor. Its an old system so no CH services manifold, just one continuous loop that naturally means that some service piping is surface mounted in strategic - and gratefully sane - locations.

In your case Kearn I have no positive suggestions beyond - assuming that the beams and posts in the rooms concerned are vertical and plumb to each other - that you consider a secondary wooden frame mounted to these to carry the radiators. You may be able to disguise or otherwise adapt any visible elements of this inner frame that sits outside the perimeter of the rad to be say shelving, lighting or even a bookcase. Sorry best I can do. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[Cherryburn]

Can't you add some additional timber bracing horizontally, connecting the posts? Then it's only a cosmetic issue you have to solve, trying to place them in a way where the new timber would be hidden by the rads themselves. That or use oak and make a feature of it. I guess it would also increase the distance the rads stand off the wall, depending on how thick the timber would have to be, how far it has to span without solid fixings.

 

[noj]

Behind panel rads where you can't see the wall I used a piece of 18mm ply. That way I didn't have to be exact on getting height/level for the rad brackets and figure that so long as it's fixed to two studs/posts it's solid enough.

Most of the studs here are far from straight so even if the first screw is secure the one six inches lower may well need shifting horizontally.

 

[jamest]

The previous owners of my place who installed the radiators had them fixed to their own little timber frame attached to the wall behind, a bit like Cherryburn describes. There is a small aesthetic problem, but that could always be dealt with using some kind of radiator cover (I've made one of these for the one radiator where I thought it mattered, because the commercial ones are so horrible!) or by using some quality wood for the bits of frame which might ultimately be on view.

 

[DaveG]

Other option with floor mounted is a couple smaller rads instead of one giant rad. I think you did sort of allude to not wanting to do this but in a very big room it makes a lot more sense and would be more efficient.
Plus the recent one I just bought was 120kg and damn near killed me. Luckily its final position was just through the front door. The thought of getting that up a flight of stairs is the stuff of nightmares.
Heated skirting boards not something you’d entertain either?

 

[Kearn]

Other option with floor mounted is a couple smaller rads instead of one giant rad. I think you did sort of allude to not wanting to do this but in a very big room it makes a lot more sense and would be more efficient.
Plus the recent one I just bought was 120kg and damn near killed me. Luckily its final position was just through the front door. The thought of getting that up a flight of stairs is the stuff of nightmares.
Heated skirting boards not something you’d entertain either?

My plan was never just one rad, we need multiple large rads, not small!! Most of the spaces are large, and insulation isn’t ideal so heat loss calcs are sizeable…

 

[Cubist]

Just a thought; have you considered steel wall straps, say 25x4mm, bent to form a stand-off from the infill panels and including suitable apertures/fixings for the radiators usual hangers? I recall seeing a similar arrangement where the straps were fixed with a couple of coach screws to a beam more or less at floor level. Depending on the layout of the wall beams a similar approach could be used with any at intermediate heights up to 3-4ft I would think.

 

[Lacan07]

Cast iron floor standing rads for me with a central rigid stay. You can get similar steel column versions that might be slightly lighter and come with brackets and the option of feet. The feet don't look like the cast iron feet though. You'll get way higher btu for less dosh though.

The CH I inherited had modern rads, some of which were attached to stud walls with a combination of one bracket in the stud and one hanging on a hollow wall raw plug. That's insane as far as I'm concerned, I'd always fix a length of ply between studs and paint.

 

[Kearn]

Cast iron floor standing rads for me with a central rigid stay. You can get similar steel column versions that might be slightly lighter and come with brackets and the option of feet. The feet don't look like the cast iron feet though. You'll get way higher btu for less dosh though.

The CH I inherited had modern rads, some of which were attached to stud walls with a combination of one bracket in the stud and one hanging on a hollow wall raw plug. That's insane as far as I'm concerned, I'd always fix a length of ply between studs and paint.

I’ve found a fair few steel columns, which was my plan, but the problem I have with them is they rely entirely on the horizontal clamps to attach them. The feet are purely decorative!
I don’t trust no vertical bearing on a metal lump full of hot water!

Looks like we may add oak studs to pick up the other sides of brackets for wall hung… or just lug up stupidly heavy rads to upper floors

Nothing is every easy!

 

[Kearn]

Just a thought; have you considered steel wall straps, say 25x4mm, bent to form a stand-off from the infill panels and including suitable apertures/fixings for the radiators usual hangers? I recall seeing a similar arrangement where the straps were fixed with a couple of coach screws to a beam more or less at floor level. Depending on the layout of the wall beams a similar approach could be used with any at intermediate heights up to 3-4ft I would think.

No we haven’t actually… which is ironic as a lot of our remedial work to the timber frame is minimal intervention, forged straps to stop things going anywhere rather than unnecessary timber repairs.

That might just work, utilising the floor plates to raise a higher bracket and then attaching into rails for the top ones. Or even doing the reverse on the upper ones, otherwise our rads may end up very high! Merci!

 

[Lacan07]

I’ve found a fair few steel columns, which was my plan, but the problem I have with them is they rely entirely on the horizontal clamps to attach them. The feet are purely decorative!
I don’t trust no vertical bearing on a metal lump full of hot water!

Looks like we may add oak studs to pick up the other sides of brackets for wall hung… or just lug up stupidly heavy rads to upper floors

Nothing is every easy!

I must admit I didn't realise those feet were entirely decorative!

I only have one room upstairs that requires a sizeable btu and I must admit I'm a bit nervous about the weight of a cast iron rad, they are insanely heavy when you move above the 3000 btu. For downstairs I'll need even more a hefty btu but I'm planning to add extra joists and bracing.

But you're right, nothing is ever easy or plain sailing. Every job I do ends up morphing into a drama.

 

[aockenden]

The CH I inherited had modern rads, some of which were attached to stud walls with a combination of one bracket in the stud and one hanging on a hollow wall raw plug. That's insane as far as I'm concerned, I'd always fix a length of ply between studs and paint.

People are so slipshod with their rad mounting. We had one plumber hang a bathroom rad in such a way that NONE of the 4 fixings went into timber of any kind. All 4 were using sone plasterboard mounting plug crap. He also could only be bothered to put locking-screws into 2 of the 4 mounts, the other two just bounce around within their sockets. That was the last time I ever let anyone else position or install any rad in this house. Yabbos!!!

 

[Cubist]

Merci!

De nada.

Every job I do ends up morphing into a drama.

I share your frustration but I try to remember that the difference between Tragedy and Comedy is Timing. However, trying to stop hysterical weeping OR laughter can be hernia inducing nevertheless.

People are so slipshod with their rad mounting.

The installers 'out of the customers sight' work often ends with an 'out of mind' emotional response for the client instead.

Yabbos!!!

Err, Yobboes we have aplenty here in the UK but you got me guessing with this epithet?

 

[Flyfisher]

Our timber-frame house came with 1930s-era central heating consisting of 2-3 inch cast iron pipework and wall-mounted iron rads. None of it was working and has now been mostly removed.

The radiator mounting brackets were fixed to horizontal pieces of thick timber that had been nailed across the oak studs of the house structure. The house structure is close- studded so there was plenty of choice for where to locate the radiators and it was easy to get solid fixings into 2, 3 and sometimes 4 studs. Despite their weight, the radiators were fixed rock-solid.

 

[Kearn]

Our timber-frame house came with 1930s-era central heating consisting of 2-3 inch cast iron pipework and wall-mounted iron rads. None of it was working and has now been mostly removed.

The radiator mounting brackets were fixed to horizontal pieces of thick timber that had been nailed across the oak studs of the house structure. The house structure is close- studded so there was plenty of choice for where to locate the radiators and it was easy to get solid fixings into 2, 3 and sometimes 4 studs. Despite their weight, the radiators were fixed rock-solid.

Close studding would be a breeze, the spacing between my posts is too much in most locations to deal with, and the rails too high to hang anything from…

I think we have a couple of plans tho…

I need to further investigate Cubist’s floating metal bracket idea… or its a case of adding studs to take the brackets. And in some cases we may just have to lug free standers up…!