Can this Georgian roof be repaired without putting a new roof on?

[montyjohn]

I've just had a survey done on a 1760's Georgian Property I want to buy.
Whilst the report is pending, they have shared the photos, and the worst part of the roof is attached.

As you can see, lots of slipped clay tiles, and all out of alignment (the other three sides look a lot better).

Long term we would like to convert the loft space (in 5 to10 years), so we want to do as little as possible with the roof in the short term.

Has anybody got any experience or know how realistic it would be to just replace the broken tiles and those that don't have nibs on them that have slipped.
I don't know how the tiles are currently held in place (nibs, wooden pegs or nails)?

The battens in the loft are dry and solid.
But you can't see the underside of the tiles due to the torching (layer of lime which unfortunately has a layer of cement on top of the lime).

Advice from the surveyor is we ultimately need the roof tiles relaying/replacing etc.
Question is, what can realistically be done instead to give us another 10 years?

Assuming a minimum touch repair can be done and then, if 10 years come and go and we don't do the loft conversion, if the tiles are still holding straight, then is there a problem to solve? If not, then does it really need the roof renewing?

 

[jamest]

I may have missed something, but what's supposed to be wrong with it apart from some broken/decayed tiles and some slipped ones? If it's keeping the rain out, where's the problem? Just replace the broken ones and refit/replace the slipped ones. My roof doesn't look any better (though it's not torched, which might introduce some difficulties) and I just replace the tiles as and when they slip or break. My parents had a Kentish peg tiled roof that looked much worse than that and they hardly did anything to it for 30 years, with never a problem. If the house is listed or in a conservation area, you'll have a problem arguing that the roof tiles should be replaced, I would think. To my untrained eye, that is a beautiful roof as is, shame to change it.

 

[montyjohn]

I'm of a very similar mindset.
But I've been told by a few different people now that it's due a new roof.
My approach was absolutely just to replace damaged or slipped tiles that don't have a nib.
But I don't have the experience so I'm now finding myself questioned my approach.

As for the torching, if I can't get the tile to hook on I'd lift the tiles above, and just knock off the torching with a chisel from the outside, until it hooks on securely. Make good with the torching after.

I have a lot of confidence in my surveyor, and when I met him there was a lot of information going back and forth and I haven't questioned everything yet. He may agree with this approach, I don't know yet.

But your response gives me some confidence I'm not mad.

It is Grade 2 listed.

 

[Cubist]

Provided the underlying timber structure of the roof is in good general condition and have not been significantly damaged by water ingress or lack of effective ventilation then any halfway competent roofer would be capable of re-seating the slipped tiles - there are also reasonably inexpensive tile clips and brackets that can be installed to secure the tiles in place and prevent future slippage (slate roofers call these 'tingles'). From the photos there do not appear to be many that have been completely lost or destroyed and it should be relatively easy to find replacements from a Reclamation yard. As far as the Conservation Officer is concerned, so long as you are only making 'like for like' repairs then you should face no significant challenge from them.

 

[a twig]

To fully answer the question you need to inspect the tiles. If the “fired” face, i.e the harder impervious surface has worn away then the tiles will become porous on the top, allow water in (even if not necessarily through) and then freeze/thaw will put paid to them.

Looking at the photo there are a fair few that have damage, have slipped, have been replaced with slate etc and then you get into the trade off situation - given the overheads of scaffold, roofer’s labour etc is there really much difference between repairing say 15-20% of the tiles for 5 years peace of mind vs re-doing the whole lot for 20+ years of confidence. Obviously how long you intend to live there factors in to these plans as well

When we were in a similar situation we re-roofed the whole lot but that was a decade ago and things were cheaper then.

 

[a twig]

The other thing to consider is how well the tiles actually discharge rainwater into the gutter - again looking at the photo there are places where the tiles almost entirely overhang the gutter so rainwater will be coming straight down onto the ground and splashing against the walls

 

[jamest]

A twig's quite right to point out that there is likely freeze-thaw damage going on there. My parents had loads of tiles that were damaged that way and left them for years with no ill effects - it used to bother me when I used to go and visit, but they refused to replace them until they were completely gone! Didn't seem to lead to any problems and they followed that method for over 35 years. I have followed their lead to similar effect. Doubtless a sensible person would say, "probably best to replace the whole lot in the next few years mate" and it would give you peace of mind for sure, but in my (limited) experience, with a roof in that condition (assuming, as you've suggested, the underlying structure is all good), you could probably get 20 years or more out of that roof by replacing/reseating a few tiles every year. We have a roofer who's happy to get up on the roof with just a couple of ladders, which makes it fairly cheap. If I had to get scaffold in every time, I'd be doing the whole lot.

 

[Stevers]

There are some areas near the base of the chimney where the sideways lap is inadequate, or not there at all due to piecemeal replacements in the past. Patching it, with extra attention in those areas and along the eaves, should leave it a picturesque yet functional roof.

Interesting design with the 'well' in the middle, hope the 'valley' and drain from there is in good shape.

 

[Kearn]

From the pic, I’d be paying attention to the failed lime (probably now cement) flaunching around the chimneys, water will be entering here.
Equally, getting to the bottom of why the gutter is largely irrelevant currently - too small/not sat far enough out from the fascia/tiles have slipped en masse…
And what about the roof faces you cannot see, in the internal section?!

A final watch out, and you won’t be able to tell till you investigate either destructively from inside, or by getting access from the top, is how the tiles are secured. My old place had a lovely old tile roof, secured with the original wooden pegs. Once we started to replace the odd slipped tile, it became apparent that the pegs were all dust and it was gravity, inertia and cobwebs keeping the deck of cards up.

You do have to question why so many tiles in various locations have slipped… pegging failure would be my first guess I had to…

 

[Oldschool]

take it from someone who took the approach of re seating slipped tiles on a roof past it's best it's just not worth it, if you'll need scaffolding why do that twice, will the roofers break more tiles held on by the skin of their teeth trying to re seat the slipped ones, we've wasted tens of thousands on bits of roofing here and there (ours is a huge roof with parapets, four valleys and a cross wing, yours also looks more complex) and if we'd just bitten the bullet we'd have a completely new roof now. The adage that you restore a house from the roof down is a good one I am afraid. Roofers can pick and choose and most may decide it's just not worth their time and hassle to sort out that roof I can see many many slipped tiles, some on the verge of slipping and some that are broken. Could you just do that one side for now? You'll need listed building consent if it's listed which should include a bat survey probably. Good roofers are hard to come by in my experience and you don't want a cowboy up there. Looks a really lovely building by the way.

 

[montyjohn]

take it from someone who took the approach of re seating slipped tiles on a roof past it's best it's just not worth it, if you'll need scaffolding why do that twice, will the roofers break more tiles held on by the skin of their teeth trying to re seat the slipped ones

I would be taking a different approach.

The repairs I would need to do extend beyond just the roof. I need to do some work on the chimneys, general pointing, the gutters need restoring, the soffits and then everything else I'm not thinking of.
Because this will all be done by me, over several years I'm planning on buying my own scaffolding. £1000 in second hand gear is enough to do two sides of the house.
The plan would be to do one side at time. And take my time with it.
I'll be able to set up ladders from the scaffolding to the ridge to take the load off the roof if that's what it takes.
It helps that I'm a climber so pretty comfortable with rope access as backup.

If I do all this, and a few more tiles slip in three years time, re-erecting the scaffolding and replacing a handful of tiles isn't a big concern for me. I may well be underestimating how long it takes to erect the scaffolding but if you where honest with how long everything takes I'd never buy a house like this.

The big concern is if they are still held in by wooden pegs and they are all rotten. But I can't establish this until I buy so need to plan for both scenarios.

 

[montyjohn]

Once we started to replace the odd slipped tile, it became apparent that the pegs were all dust and it was gravity, inertia and cobwebs keeping the deck of cards up.

This is my big concern.

 

[Oldschool]

I would be taking a different approach.

The repairs I would need to do extend beyond just the roof. I need to do some work on the chimneys, general pointing, the gutters need restoring, the soffits and then everything else I'm not thinking of.
Because this will all be done by me, over several years I'm planning on buying my own scaffolding. £1000 in second hand gear is enough to do two sides of the house.
The plan would be to do one side at time. And take my time with it.
I'll be able to set up ladders from the scaffolding to the ridge to take the load off the roof if that's what it takes.
It helps that I'm a climber so pretty comfortable with rope access as backup.

If I do all this, and a few more tiles slip in three years time, re-erecting the scaffolding and replacing a handful of tiles isn't a big concern for me. I may well be underestimating how long it takes to erect the scaffolding but if you where honest with how long everything takes I'd never buy a house like this.

The big concern is if they are still held in by wooden pegs and they are all rotten. But I can't establish this until I buy so need to plan for both scenarios.

that does put rather a different slant on it, are you negotiating on the price for the new roof your surveyor is reporting is required....would that help with your decision?

 

[Oldschool]

Also what are the chances of you gaining LBC for your proposed loft conversion?

 

[montyjohn]

We're not renegotiating. It was already obvious from the viewing that a lot of work was required. It's priced accordingly. We knew some roof repairs would be needed. We still don't know if a full roof replacement is required and I don't think we will until we own it.

Also what are the chances of you gaining LBC for your proposed loft conversion?

Who knows.
Without a pre planning LBC application best I can give is 50/50.