17th Century Timber Frame Wattle Daub House

[oldyWorldyStuff]

Hi,
We're looking to buy a 17th Century Timber Framed house. The house is located directly on a small narrow road, it's on this side there appears to be bowing and considerable repair / restoration required. I have several questions:

1.) There are houses further down this lane. What type of permission would I need to seek from the local authorities to carry out the works to restore / repair the walls?

2.) The brickwork at ground level appears damp. With the wall being directly on the road it seems infeasible to be able to dig a drainage channel around the property to effectively drain moisture away from the property. What possible solutions are there to this?

3.) Can anyone here with experience give an indication as to the likely work that will be needed, time frame and the potential cost? I have little experience whe it comes to period properties. I'd expect the sole plates have rotten and there are visible cracks to the corner of the main building (pictured) which was extended in the 1970's. I understand this is a very ambiguous question but any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Kearn]

Hi,
We're looking to buy a 17th Century Timber Framed house. The house is located directly on a small narrow road, it's on this side there appears to be bowing and considerable repair / restoration required. I have several questions:

There’s a lot more info needed here for anyone to give a half sensible reply. Is there a sale listing?

If you’re serious, then a good heritage surveyor who understands timber frames is essential. And near impossible to find, particularly depending where in the county it is. You’d probably be better with a structural timber framer undertaking an assessment. huge caveat that they can only potentially see 25% of the timber face, so can only assess so much… the true state of timber doesn’t become evident until you’re well into repairs and past the point of no return. Timber buildings take a huge amount of time and cash, once you’ve found the right people.

1.) There are houses further down this lane. What type of permission would I need to seek from the local authorities to carry out the works to restore / repair the walls?

Depends who owns the lane. But this is a logistical nightmare for access to work, store materials, site skips, vans etc… that wall could require scaffolding for 6months+ which would potentially put the lane out of action.

2.) The brickwork at ground level appears damp. With the wall being directly on the road it seems infeasible to be able to dig a drainage channel around the property to effectively drain moisture away from the property. What possible solutions are there to this?

It will definitely be damp, but the wet patches look quite specific - check the gutters above when it rains as I don’t doubt they’ll be leaking.
What is the internal ground level, finish? What’s the internal wall finish, is the outside sand and cement pointed… lots of things could be at play here.

3.) Can anyone here with experience give an indication as to the likely work that will be needed, time frame and the potential cost? I have little experience whe it comes to period properties. I'd expect the sole plates have rotten and there are visible cracks to the corner of the main building (pictured) which was extended in the 1970's. I understand this is a very ambiguous question but any input would be greatly appreciated.

If you’re wanting to do this properly, and you may have no choice, then factor in living elsewhere, major extra costs for skips/scaffold/permissions,

It’s impossible for anyone to out a cost or timeline from this little info. But I would expect it’s not just this elevation that you’ll have issues with. Timber frame repair is very intrusive and destructive to all adjacent materials. There is a ton of making good afterwards to brickwork/stonework/panels/roofs…

Equally, when you’re going as fundamental as timber frame repair, it’s almost ground zero and a great time to do all the other updates / repairs.

Back to the professionals to come and assess fully. This won’t be a small, cheap or easy project so it’s an eyes wide open one where prior experience and access to the right team will be essential. Sometimes the effort isn’t worth the reward, in any currency, and I say that as someone who sometimes irrationally wants to conserve old buildings as we pull out the flank wall of our bedroom to remove the mid plate, about 3 weeks before we meant to be moving back in…nothing goes to plan or budget and your personal, financial, and family stresses will skyrocket as rarely will you be in control of plans! But once we’re finally done, we aren’t going anywhere…

 

[oldyWorldyStuff]

There’s a lot more info needed here for anyone to give a half sensible reply. Is there a sale listing?

If you’re serious, then a good heritage surveyor who understands timber frames is essential. And near impossible to find, particularly depending where in the county it is. You’d probably be better with a structural timber framer undertaking an assessment. huge caveat that they can only potentially see 25% of the timber face, so can only assess so much… the true state of timber doesn’t become evident until you’re well into repairs and past the point of no return. Timber buildings take a huge amount of time and cash, once you’ve found the right people.

Depends who owns the lane. But this is a logistical nightmare for access to work, store materials, site skips, vans etc… that wall could require scaffolding for 6months+ which would potentially put the lane out of action.


It will definitely be damp, but the wet patches look quite specific - check the gutters above when it rains as I don’t doubt they’ll be leaking.
What is the internal ground level, finish? What’s the internal wall finish, is the outside sand and cement pointed… lots of things could be at play here.

If you’re wanting to do this properly, and you may have no choice, then factor in living elsewhere, major extra costs for skips/scaffold/permissions,

It’s impossible for anyone to out a cost or timeline from this little info. But I would expect it’s not just this elevation that you’ll have issues with. Timber frame repair is very intrusive and destructive to all adjacent materials. There is a ton of making good afterwards to brickwork/stonework/panels/roofs…

Equally, when you’re going as fundamental as timber frame repair, it’s almost ground zero and a great time to do all the other updates / repairs.

Back to the professionals to come and assess fully. This won’t be a small, cheap or easy project so it’s an eyes wide open one where prior experience and access to the right team will be essential. Sometimes the effort isn’t worth the reward, in any currency, and I say that as someone who sometimes irrationally wants to conserve old buildings as we pull out the flank wall of our bedroom to remove the mid plate, about 3 weeks before we meant to be moving back in…nothing goes to plan or budget and your personal, financial, and family stresses will skyrocket as rarely will you be in control of plans! But once we’re finally done, we aren’t going anywhere…

Hi,
Thanks for your input & reply. I've tried to get a period timber frame specialist but as yet it's been hard to find anyone with any availablility.

Apologies for not giving you more information. Below is the link to the listing on Rightmmove if that helps:

Check out this 3 bedroom semi-detached house for sale on Rightmove

3 bedroom semi-detached house for sale in Long Melford, Sudbury, Suffolk, CO10 for £275,000. Marketed by David Burr Estate Agents, Long Melford

www.rightmove.co.uk

My take is that the house would be lived in for many years and not a short term stay. It's not a do up and sell up scenario. So the labour of love would be worthwhile in many ways.

From what you've said it may be too disruptive for the neighbours, especially those living further down the lane, which is a large stress on top of an already difficult project. Plus it could just be a huge can of worms.

We do have somewhere to live nearby during the period work would be undertaken. We don't have a huge budget but we are drawn to properties requiring love and care. I will take your questions to an expert, when I eventually find someone, who can take a look and I will report back to you their findings.

Many thanks,
Tim

 

[aockenden]

I would have never looked at any of these pics and thought it was a timber frame house with wattle and daub. I assume you’ve actually confirmed these things?

 

[Kearn]

I would have never looked at any of these pics and thought it was a timber frame house with wattle and daub. I assume you’ve actually confirmed these things?

Indeed, hence I was curious to see pics. If there’s timber frame in there, it is very hidden. Only being able to see one (interior/exterior) face is a gamble enough with 25% visibility…

Personally, if you know there is timber, the Chances are it’s structural role has been very compromised.

This is a complete gamble. You won’t know the scale of anything until you are very far into a repair/rebuild.

So, if it were me, the only thing that would drive me to pursue this would be some personal connection or a compelling reason that this house must be saved.

 

[jamest]

That wall along the side lane does indeed look very dodgy. There is some worrying staining on the rendered part along with extensive cracking and possible bulging. The cracking in the at the corner/junction with the extension could be the result of water ingress at the base of the bit of the corner post that is visible - water will get down there without doubt. Water will penetrate through the cracks in the render all along that wall. Is is cement render? I would guess so and painted by the looks of it. The lip between the rendered part and the brickwork below is also a potential water trap, especially as the render along the top of it is coming away/cracked. If there is indeed a timber frame still in the wall, it is likely quite rotten. I guess if it's not listed and the frame is rotted, it could be rebuilt in brick - save time and money if nothing else. The un-rendered brick part of the wall looks quite high, is it a very tall plinth or a rebuilt bit of wall to fill in the part that was once the original sole plate? Kearn's comments are very sensible.

 

[Flyfisher]

Indeed, hence I was curious to see pics. If there’s timber frame in there, it is very hidden. Only being able to see one (interior/exterior) face is a gamble enough with 25% visibility…

Personally, if you know there is timber, the Chances are it’s structural role has been very compromised.

This is a complete gamble. You won’t know the scale of anything until you are very far into a repair/rebuild.

So, if it were me, the only thing that would drive me to pursue this would be some personal connection or a compelling reason that this house must be saved.

I entirely agree, especially with the last sentence. These sorts of projects are not called 'money pits' for nothing (at the bezt of times) and from the info given so far it seems like you're going in blind.

Long Melford is a lovely town but the specific location looks like a nightmare as far as carrying out significant works is concerned. I had scaffolding around my house for about five years (OK, it was mostly DIY work so quite slow!), but I was fortunate that it stood within plenty of space so access for materials deliveries and skips was not an issue (have you seen the size of Jewson trucks?!),. I'm guessing that closing off that alley way for any significant length of time would be almost impossible. It looks like a public right of way so you'll need to enquire about it with the local council highways department. But whatever they say, it's going to be fraught with practical problems, possibly onerous conditions and you'll need to carefully check your public liability insurance.

Having said all that, the area is chock-full of historic and listed properties so it should't be too difficult to find specialist and experienced surveyors and builders. I'd expect surveyors to be able to find a day or two at reasonable notice, though good builders will likely have a very full order book and may not be able to start for many months. Things may be different now but before lockdown I was looking for some work to be done and one very well known East Anglian heritage building firm told me they were not quoting for any work as they had a two year backlog!

Apologies if this all sounds somewhat bleak but it's an honest assessment based on my own experience of the past 15 years restoring my own G2* house. I don't regret any of it but I would never have taken it on if I hadn't been retired and therefore had plenty of time. The only alternative is to have a few million to spare so you can just hand it all over to the right builder (a whole journey in itself!) while you sit on a tropical beach somewhere for the next year or so and let them get on with it!

Did I mention I especially agree with Kearns last sentence?

 

[oldyWorldyStuff]

Thanks to all who have replied with your valuable input. It looks like we won't be pursuing this venture for many of the reasons highlighted, however, I do sincerely hope someone is able to save this building.

For those asking I can confirm it's a timber structure. There is a small section of wattle and daub exposed with the timber frame on the opposite side of the building to the road.

Many thanks

 

[Toby Newell]

Thanks to all who have replied with your valuable input. It looks like we won't be pursuing this venture for many of the reasons highlighted, however, I do sincerely hope someone is able to save this building.

For those asking I can confirm it's a timber structure. There is a small section of wattle and daub exposed with the timber frame on the opposite side of the building to the road.

Many thanks

Never mind, you are looking at houses in the world epicentre of ancient buildings so I am sure another one will be along soon.