A question on newly installed wood burner..

[shiva72]

Hello folks.
Just had a small second hand multifuel wood burner installed in our mid terraced cottage. I was under the impression that there would be a flue that went all the way up the chimney from the stove...... But there seems to be only a short flue into the chimney and then a flue coming out of the ridge of the roof.... the guy who installed it had previously looked at the fireplace and assured us it didn't sweeping etc.
Is this the norm??? Do we need a flue liner that goes all the way up?? Have I been a Eejit??

Many thanks
Dermot

 

[Nemesis]

Em - as far as building regs go, I think you need a fully lined flue.

I know some people do have stoves without, but...

Did he test the existing flue to see if it was sound?

I'm a bit puzzled re the flue coming out of the ridge - have you not got a chimney stack?

 

[bower1]

This is probably too much information, but if no-one can answer your question, a copy of the building regulations is here:

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2002.pdf

I've generally found that if you phone the local building control department they will answer your questions, and do not always require you to say who you are. I've no experience of South Somerset, but Mendip and West Somerset have been OK.

A agree with Nemesis that it sounds very odd to have a flue out of the top without a chimney pot. Was the old chimney previously lowered and re-roofed over?

 

[Nemesis]

A number of sellers of stoves and liners have articles on their websites about lining - OK I know it's to sell you the product but initially a little less daunting than the building regs!

Scroll down to the bottom of this linked page for some useful reading:

http://www.fluesystems.com/liners/

From that site:

Do I need a multi fuel chimney liner ?

A multi fuel chimney liner is a twin skinned stainless steel tube which is used to reline existing masonry chimney stacks. Lets have a look at why we may want to reline our chimney.

The major reason to reline would be in situations where smoke and fumes from your fire are leaking from the masonry chimney stack into adjacent rooms. This is extremely dangerous and should be remedied immediately. What happens is that over time, the mortar between the joints of chimney stack can break down, and allow the escape of the gasses. The symptoms can sometimes be seen as dirty brown patches on the wall, although often there is no visible sign.

It's only on properties that were built prior to about 1965 where this can happen, as after this date, building regulations ensured that new chimney stacks were constructed using impervious pot liners. These generally do not need a flexible metal chimney liner, although some choose to line these as well to keep them in good condition.

We don't have a stainless liner as we have a pot liner (it can be done, although it's far more difficult than installing a stainless one - we had major cracking of a flue and so remedied that and installed a sectional ceramic liner at the same time).

However, old flues are frequently not in great condition, and a stove will be putting very hot gases indeed up the flue.


This is a very useful read also:


http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/pdfs/lining_old_chimneys.doc

Avoid the permanent type liners however.

 

[shiva72]

Thanks for the response.
The chimney stack had been removed and roofed over a number of years ago as far as I know... He didn't test if existing flue was sound.... I assumed he knew his onions.

Gonna do a small burn and check how it goes.

thanks for the links will check them out

 

[Mark]

So he didnt sweep the chimney? Or put a camera up?

Is the flue pipe at the bottom joining a flexible liner (if so how are they jointed?) which runs up the chimney?

Sounds very suspect. I would be getting it checked before using it.

 

[Mark]

The chimney stack had been removed and roofed over a number of years ago as far as I know... He didn't test if existing flue was sound.... I assumed he knew his onions.

So whats the situation at the roof now? Has he just removed tiles (please say its not thatched)? What flashing is in place?

 

[Penners]

there seems to be only a short flue into the chimney and then a flue coming out of the ridge of the roof

Does the short flue into the chimney disappear into a register plate (a steel plate that entirely seals off your chimney, just above the hearth)?

If so, then there's probably some sort of flue running all the way up the inside of the chimney, and emerging at the top.

 

[shiva72]

Its not a thatched roof... There is a register plate installed, not steel but some sort of white fireproof board with a small hatch , the flue goes up abut 8 inches above it and stops. he's put a flue through the top of the ridge re tiled and flashed it...

The only thing he stuck up the chimney was his head when he came to look at the job.....
He told us at the time we didn't need it swept but I'm getting it done anyway.

 

[Nemesis]

This is worrying. If the stovepipe runs above the register plate, then there is space around and under for soot to collect. Is there any means of regularly removing it? Is that what the hatch is for?


There should have been a proper flue liner all the way up, with backfill, and I wouldn't be too happy with just a bit of flue pipe in place of a chimney stack. Cheaper I know but...

Carbon monoxide is deadly stuff.

 

[Lime]

This is worrying. If the stovepipe runs above the register plate, then there is space around and under for soot to collect. Is there any means of regularly removing it? Is that what the hatch is for?


There should have been a proper flue liner all the way up, with backfill, and I wouldn't be too happy with just a bit of flue pipe in place of a chimney stack. Cheaper I know but...

Carbon monoxide is deadly stuff.

Agreed.
I'd be quite concerned as to how the "emerging" flue on the roof is attached/connected to the brick chimney.
By their very nature restricted-draught-controlled, enclosed fires produce huge quantities of carbon monoxide (compared to open fires) and to have a restriction on the chimney within the house (presumably just under the tiles) where the emerging flue meets the chimney is asking for trouble.
From the description it does not sound a safe installation at all.
Restricted wood burners produce large quantities of tar too which will condense out and accumulate in the cooler chimney.

An easy opportunity to insert a continuous flue top to bottom, comply with building regulations and ensure safety was lost for the sake of saving a few pounds.

 

[Nemesis]

I also think that if someone is paid to install, should they not be HETAS registered? I'm hazy on this but I recall an earlier thread where it was discussed.

Certainly any installation (and hearth) should comply with building regs and have some bit of paper to say so?

Nanny state it may be but where safety is concerned I think there's a reason.

 

[Penners]

shiva72 - If the chimney stack now stops short of the roof, how has the top piece of flue been married to it? Is the junction properly sealed to prevent combustion products from escaping?

It all sounds very dodgy, and I really think you need to get it sorted out properly.

From the description it does not sound a safe installation at all.

I agree.

 

[Nemesis]

From the description, I can only guess that the pot and stack were removed to roof level. The piece of metal pipe replaces those.

It seems to me that expansion and contraction of a metal pipe pushed in to a brick or stone flue, if that is what has happened, would mean in all probability that heating and cooling would mean the metal could break any seal very readily.

 

[shiva72]

Thanks for all your responses folks....

The guy who did the work seemed to be ok and assured us it was all that was needed to be installed.. however when I spoke to him about the whole liner issue he seemed to get a bit defensive.. and when asked about a certificate of installation said there wasn't one.. will be looking into possibly getting it checked over.

Kicking myself a bit, got so carried away with opening up the fire place i forget to ask some vital questions...bugger!learning curve 1 Dermot 0

 

[Nemesis]

We've all been there....

xxx

 

[bower1]

Surely if someone does work which doesn't meet building regulations, that means that they have not supplied goods/equipment of suitable quality under the sale of good act. Unless you asked them specifically to do something which made it clear you were taking on the responsibility.

I'm not saying that this work does not meet building regulation, as previously said, your local Building Control are the only people who can fully answer this.

Maybe worth speaking to Consumer Direct South West. I've found them useful at explaining the legal position. Just so that you know where you stand.

http://www.somerset.gov.uk/somerset/ete/communityprotection/ts/

I also think that if someone is paid to install, should they not be HETAS registered?

I don't think they have to be, but you need building regulation approval from local council if not.

 

[Nemesis]

Yes - I think one or t'other.

 

[GK]

A new stove or work to a flue is subject to building regs, and a notice should be displayed giving installation details. A brief summary here: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/notice-plate.html

 

[Penners]

A new stove or work to a flue is subject to building regs, and a notice should be displayed giving installation details. A brief summary here: http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/notice-plate.html

GK - do you know if it's definitely a requirement that this is a plate, on display? We were given a paper certificate (very similar to the plate shown on that website) by our installer.