Advice please! - Main wall has bulge. Should I be worried?

[Andrewm1981]

Hello all.

I have spent some time browsing the forum after buying our house a couple of years ago, but I need a little advice and was hoping that someone may have some!

My wife and I bought our first home 3 years ago in South London. We always wanted a unique property, not another "box" and were over the moon when this house came up. The house is a former coaching house, but has had many uses over the time. The front half dates to 1509, whereas the rear extension is more 17th century. It's divided into two, over 3 floors, and the wall we have a problem with is the "end" of the house. The "end of the house" butts straight up against a small road (now closed) and then to a pub. There's about 3m in total between our house and the pub. The house is timber framed with no foundations, and bricks in between the timbers (from what we can see). The house does have some sway in it, and when we're on the top floor and bus goes past, we can certainly feel the house sway. Minor hairline cracks have appeared occasionally, but I think that's normal. It's the plaster cracking. It's literally the thinnest cracks you could imagine. I'm not massively bothered by these. on 2 or 3 occasions we have heard what sounds like gravel/rubble falling from the top floor to the bottom, "inbetween" the walls.It sounds like a small amount, maybe an eggcup full. It's a little unnerving.

Internally, the walls are vertical, and are mainly plasterboard over the loadbearing external wall. There is a small cut out of 1mx2m on the staircase as a feature, and the wall there seems vertical, which doesn't correspond to the wall outside which leans, implying that the outside may be leaning away from the internal "loadbearing" wall.

Hopefully, the pictures show the lean. From what I can measure, the wall in 50cm thick, and the lean of the outer wall is 11cm at it's maximum. It then goes back on itself, so that at the top of the 2nd floor its where it should be.

I did have a leaky roof, as is common with a double gabled roof. I had a leak, and also where the water ran into the down drain it poured over and down the wall. this is where the lean is at its worst. I'm thinking maybe water ingress had called some wood to expand and force the outer wall out? These problems have now been resolved.

The pictures should also show the large X ties, and also the 2 supporting beams that go from our house to the pub.

When I bought the house the surveyor identified the lean, but as there was no historical movement he didn't say too much more on the subject. There are no new cracks inside or outside that suggest current movement.

I guess I'm asking on here if, from your experience, it's worth worrying about. Obviously, without being here you can't be certain, but just your hunch. If I need to spend money then I will. I'm not sure how, Our household income isn't huge, and I've read some pretty scary numbers with regards to rebuilding an entire wall, numbers approaching £100K seem to bounce around. I certainly could not afford anything like that, but 10K to reinforce it somehow could be saved for and paid through a loan somehow. The house is listed, and in a conservation zone too!

I'm guessing (but am probably wrong) that the house was constructed of a timber frame, with bricks in between. Then at some later date and extra layer of "wall" has been added to the outside (what's leaning as it seems to be large and blocky, maybe 70x100xm. I hope that's the case!

So any advice, would be appreciated. Comments like "Don't worry, it's already be reinforced, and the house has been standing 500 years so it's highly unlikely to fall now" are great if they're true from your experience (Don't worry, I won't sue if you're wrong!). Comments like "Get out the house now, and spend £100K on a wall" would be an absolute horrific nightmare, and cause untold financial ruin, but if the alternative was to be in a collapsed house then it might be the right thing to hear. Somewhere inbetween....well, we'll see what the numbers are like!

Thanks in advance, and if you need any more info then I'm happy to supply!

Andrew

 

[Zebra]

May I recommend a book? "Maintaining and Repairing Old Houses - A Guide to Conservation, Sustainability and Economy" by Bevis Claxton. It offers advice and reassurance concerning movement and lean, as well as a load of other stuff.
I don't understand your photos. One appears to be a cat on a veranda and the other one a patchy floor? Oh! I see now. The photos are sideways. Perhaps it's because I'm viewing on my phone. Not a cat at all, what was I thinking?! Does the house have a cement render then? Thats less than ideal, although not necessarily causing any problems. The house has already been tied. That would suggest the problem has been around for a long time, has been addressed before, and is therefore now stable. It doesn't sound alarming to me. Part of my house was leaning out 300mm over 2m of height. That was a problem and I did address it, but it was still standing.

 

[Zebra]

Can we have a photo of this "feature cut-out" on the stairs?! Posted sideways, naturally. :wink:

 

[88v8]

Hello and welcome.

It makes a change that someone's first post is not about damp.

A bulge of 4" sounds a lot, until I consider that our little C17 cottage has a considerably larger bulge in its front wall. I really should put in a tie of some sort.



You may well be right that leaks in the valley gutter over the years have contributed or caused the problem.... rotted timbers... and that tie beam we can deduce from the X plate may indeed have addressed the symptoms.
In our case the problem is that the cross-beam has rotted. PO had it refaced, but did no tying in, probably because there's no obvious path through which to thread a tie.
Fortunately, timber frame buildings are very accommodating and I'll probably leave it for the next owner.

Your timber frame of 1509 would have been infilled with wattle & daub. The brick noggin is later, bricks having become cheaper.
Where you have two walls, it's been reskinned. Many timber buildings were reskinned. Usually because of fashion, or sometimes it was a cheaper solution than repairing a crumbling timber frame.
Question for me would be how well the masonry was tied to the timber and whether the ties are still intact or whether the masonry wall is now freestanding. Our walls here in our 'umble cottage are about 18" where masonry and 4" where timber. If your wall is 20" overall that might indicate a skin thickness of 14/16" which is middling thick for a masonry wall. There will be a gap in the wall, either between the masonry and the timber, or perhaps between two skins of masonry depending how the masonry was built. As you have noticed, vibration can cause rubble to fall down.
Our 'between the walls' sound-track is mainly mice running around inside the thatch.

I would be more worried about the buses than the bulge. Houses with no foundations don't take kindly to vibration. Can you get the council to reroute the buses and impose a weight limit on the road?

As to the bulge, attach a little angle bracket to the bulgiest bit and from it hang a plumb bob and carefully mark on the ground where the plumb bob lands. Then 6-monthly repeat the process. If it's not moving, leave the next owner to worry about it.

To prevent your photos rotating on the screen, edit and save them in your photo editor.

Ivor

 

[Andys]

Hi and welcome Andrew
if you're waking in the night thinking up nightmare scenarios, the best cure I've found is to study all the various cracks/defects/odd features, try to understand them and see if they change over time, or even with the seasons. It might be worth a day out to an owners-level course on the care of Timber framed/listed buildings (eg the Weald and Downland museum in Sussex, try googling them and request a course booklet). You might not become an expert but it should help you when you look at your house, for example looking at a defect in a timber and trying to work out if it is 'liveable' or a failure in need of fixing or if you need someone to take a better look
I get the impression most owners of very old houses have a steady stream of smallish tasks on the go which, as a whole, fend off the need for major repairs in the long run.
Andy

 

[Andrewm1981]

Hi all,

Thank you so much for your replies so far.

Apologies for the sideways photos, I'm not quite sure what happened! On my mobile they're correct, but on here they're clearly not. Lets hope the feature wall photo I've enclosed is correct!

Zebra; It seems the house has a render of sorts/ At the front it's stucco, but at the side, an outline of "blocks" can be seen, in the second photo. maybe it's cement?! The ties have been there a while - I have various photos that suggest they were installed 80-100 years ago, along with the cross beams that go from our house to the pub (nearer to 150 years for those). I'm glad you don't feel alarmed!! I've looked at the book, and it seems like it will be useful, so I've ordered a copy. It would be poor of me to come asking for advice, and then to ignore it! ps: Feature wall photo enclosed. It should be noted that the bricks don't seem super strong. ie; they crumble a bit if given a tap. I think there's moisture in there, which hopefully I've sorted with the roof.

Ivor; I'm sure we don't have mice. We do sadly have more than our fair share of slugs (urgh) and tiny moths. I'm winning the battle with both of them now though. Sadly the buses are just the top of the iceberg. I'm sure this cottage that I live in would love to be where 99% of your cottages are, surrounded by trees and quaint paths. Like yours! That looks really nice! This is in zone 3 in London, my front door opens onto a 3ft wide pavement, which has then 4 lanes of traffic! (And then a cricket green, hurrah!) I have about 10 bus routes than run outside my house, and it's a busy junction. Literally zero chance of that ever changing. The joys of London! (and secondary glazing....) Hopefully the photos are better now
I've also bought a plumb bob today, so when that arrives I'll start the measurements. good idea!

Andy; I have started that. The cracks that existed previously when we moved in, haven't changed much. I marked where they ended, and they appear to have stayed exactly where they were. One has got marginally worse. They're all hairline in the plaster though. One did appear on the top floor, about 2m long 4 days ago. It's horizontal. But that appeared the day they were doing the roof, so I think that's just where it's had unusual weight for a day of men walking over it. It's what prompted me to write the post, but I can explain the crack so I'm not worried. I'll look into the course today and book if they have a session before i start my new job.
And yes, i have a small stream of jobs that need doing! Leaking roof-check. Next jobs are to re-varnish the living room floor, and get the house repainted in paint that doesn't bubble off........ (but that's a whole different story!)

 

[MikeG]

.......Question for me would be how well the masonry was tied to the timber and whether the ties are still intact or whether the masonry wall is now freestanding........

That's the crux of the matter. Getting somewhere where it is possible to look into the cavity between the timber framed element and the masonry outer skin of the wall is critical, and if you can't do that, then poking a scope in there is the next best thing.

The thing is, any ties in that wall are likely to be mild steel, and mild steel rusts. In the end, ties will rust through and provide no link between the leaves of the wall. One cottage I visited it was possible to rock the brick outer skin back and forth by hand, as there were no extant ties at all. Ties were pretty sparse in those days as well. If they are non-existent, or shot to bits, then there are specialist brick repair companies who can fix new ties in situ, and so the very worst I can imagine for your property is a bill of a thousand or two for a full programme of replacement ties.

 

[88v8]

Interesting photo. What strange brickwork. An immense number of headers, unbonded perpends.
Not noggin. Must be at least 9". Is this in a cellar?
And on top, is that a ground beam?
Or is that the wall of the extension, so no timber frame?

I think you are right just to monitor the cracks and movement. As regards internal cracks, Andys makes a good point about seasonal movement.

Shame about the traffic. We left Surrey to get away from that sort of thing, although nothing like the intensity you have.

You mentioned plasterboard; originally there would have been lathe perhaps, with lime plaster which is more flexible. The plasterboard is likely to crack along the joins especially if they haven't been taped, and where the board adjoins other materials.

Floor 'varnish'. Paint. Two topics that occupy much forum space.
Period-appropriate floor coatings.
Breathable paints for houses with no damp course (ie yours).

Do you intend to stay there long-term? Do you wish to restore the house in sympathetic materials? Or are you looking to live there a while and then move on. One difficulty with doing the right thing by old houses is finding workmen who know or care or give a damn.
Fortunately, if you have a worthwhile floor, there's Toby Newell on your doorstep(ish).

As to the paint, the time of year for limewash has passed, and in any case limewash will soon dirty with those nasty diesels and I imagine your house has years of modern paint slathered on it already, so another coat of 'we always use this guv' paint that will eventually bubble off won't do much more harm.
If you like, start another thread about paint.

Meanwhile, heeeeere's Toby!
http://newellwoodworks.co.uk/index.html

Camera better for decent size photos. My Olympus C5050Z, made 2002, was £100 on eBay.
Here we are
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Olympus-Camedia-C-5050-/262654422832?hash=item3d276c6f30:g:408AAOSwTA9X8SOf
if you want to chance 99p on one that might not work.

Ivor

 

[Andrewm1981]

Hi Ivor,

Nope, not a cellar, it's the stairs from the ground to the first floor, in the older part of the house. The wall you see is the "inside" half of the wall that's bulging out (but clearly not bulging out there.) I assume the timber beam is...well part of the timber frame. We both work in London, so need to be commutable. Sadly the £5K or whatever for a season pass from some of the more commutable can't be justified really, so here we are. We really do love the house though, despite its quirks (That's why we all bought older properties, right?)

I'm quite a DIY man, so I'll do the floor myself. It isn't bad, It's just where we walk the varnish has worn through. I'll paper it all off then revarnish it all. I'll do the appropriate research, as the boards are Victorian at least to preserve them as best as possible. Maybe the new book I've bought will have tips! Thanks for the link though, I'll take a look.

Realistically we plan to be here another 5-7 years maybe. The schools around here aren't ideal, and kids are the next thing on the list so I think we'd move probably. For that reason, I'd like to preserve the property as best we can with the correct paints etc, but not looking to invest huge amounts that wouldn't be seen again when we sell. Although I would buy a period property again, so it's all good transferable experience.

We've already had the house painted once (18 months ago), and it needs doing again already. The diesel fumes are... well.... put it this way; I have to clean the front of the house every week. After 3 days, you can draw your name on the window sill from all the dust that lands there! I think we'll do that spring next year, and strip all the old paint off and start again with the correct breathable paints.

And finally thanks for the shameless plug! My iphone 6 takes perfectly good photos (although at 90 degree angle it seems), but when I add attachments here it says theyre too big so I made it the smaller size! Good luck with the questionable camera sale!

Andrew

 

[88v8]

And finally thanks for the shameless plug! My iphone 6 takes perfectly good photos (although at 90 degree angle it seems), but when I add attachments here it says theyre too big so I made it the smaller size! Good luck with the questionable camera sale!
Andrew

Hoho.
Not mine actually. I was hoping to find one you could buy, but they all seem to have vanished.
Which makes me think I should buy another in case mine ever conks out.

One can upload pics with no size limit via Photobucket, which is what I generally do. Copy/paste the img code.

Where we lived the paintwork - and our lungs - were dirtied by traffic, and jet fuel from Heathrow. Now in our thatched cottage, it's mainly spider poo.

That beam looks very substantial. Other than this snippet, is the frame visible from the inside at all?

You mentioned paint bubbling. Presumably low down? So that's a symptom of damp. Eliminating damp in a house that old is nigh on impossible, so it's a matter of mitigation. A breathable paint would be a better bet, but limewash is not gong to cope with the pollution. Keim Granital might be a better bet. Question is to what extent the existing unsound paints need to come off first.
As you say, another topic.
http://www.keimpaints.co.uk/

Ivor