Advice sought

[AlexK]

Hi everyone

And Hi to Malcolm (it's Alex here from Battle Cottage up the road )

I've been long meaning to join this forum, and recent events have given me a bit more encouragement to do so.

I'm after a bit of advice, if that's ok. Partner and I live in a Grade 2 Listed thatched cottage and it needs some repairs to the gable end render and the roof.

I sought advice from the council's conservation team who advised me that despite the repairs being fairly trivial, they require Listed Building Consent!

Reason being, the house is rendered in concrete (we think, anyway) and it should be Lime. Using the correct material constitutes as a change.

Similarly, the roof is thatched in straw, but as there's a shortage of it straw, the thatcher can only get hold of Reed. Again, another change.

My question is, it appears very difficult to apply for LBC as Joe public. They want me to provide all sorts - plans and drawings, access statement, etc.

Is there a way of doing this that doesn't force me to recruit the services of an architect, etc? As I fear that this is the expensive route I am being forced down just so I can carry out some fairly basic repairs.

Thanks in advance

Alex

 

[Kearn]

Hi everyone

And Hi to Malcolm (it's Alex here from Battle Cottage up the road )

I've been long meaning to join this forum, and recent events have given me a bit more encouragement to do so.

I'm after a bit of advice, if that's ok. Partner and I live in a Grade 2 Listed thatched cottage and it needs some repairs to the gable end render and the roof.

I sought advice from the council's conservation team who advised me that despite the repairs being fairly trivial, they require Listed Building Consent!

Reason being, the house is rendered in concrete (we think, anyway) and it should be Lime. Using the correct material constitutes as a change.

Similarly, the roof is thatched in straw, but as there's a shortage of it straw, the thatcher can only get hold of Reed. Again, another change.

My question is, it appears very difficult to apply for LBC as Joe public. They want me to provide all sorts - plans and drawings, access statement, etc.

Is there a way of doing this that doesn't force me to recruit the services of an architect, etc? As I fear that this is the expensive route I am being forced down just so I can carry out some fairly basic repairs.

Thanks in advance

Alex

It’s pretty straight forward to do yourself, especially for relatively discrete things. Search the planning portal and find similar applications to yours and borrow from their docs, especially the Heritage statement - Hertiage England also have a guide pack on what should be considered in terms of the lenses for significance and what constitutes harm.

Access statement is a few tick boxes. It’s irrelevant to what you’re doing g.

Elevations can be hand drawn…

 

[AlexK]

It’s pretty straight forward to do yourself, especially for relatively discrete things. Search the planning portal and find similar applications to yours and borrow from their docs, especially the Heritage statement - Hertiage England also have a guide pack on what should be considered in terms of the lenses for significance and what constitutes harm.

Access statement is a few tick boxes. It’s irrelevant to what you’re doing g.

Elevations can be hand drawn…

Thanks very much! That's very useful.

I'll have a look on the planning portal and get an idea of how it's done.

But it's handy to know that I can potentially do it myself..

 

[Kearn]

Thanks very much! That's very useful.

I'll have a look on the planning portal and get an idea of how it's done.

But it's handy to know that I can potentially do it myself..

What is key, is that your level of detail presented needs to be proportional to the level of work you’re proposing to the building, and specifically any areas of greater significance.

Drawings don’t have to be perfect, I’ve seen many hand drawn, BUT scale is essential otherwise they reject them.

You may stumble a bit of straw is a really key element of the local thatching vernacular and you wish to change.

Cement render to lime should be a no brainer. Any photos showing historic traces of lime plaster/lime wash will help your cause when you do some test area removals. Equally any old photos of the building from the archives that could show the same.

 

[Flyfisher]

I second Kearn's comments. Much depends on the extent of the proposed works but what's being described here sounds pretty straightforward and I wouldn't hesitate to make the LBC submission myself. I've done two submissions myself with no problems, using hand-drawn sketches, simple powerpoint diagrams and photos. The important thing is to clearly explain the proposed works and why, which in this case seems to amount to effectively a like-for-like repair, allbeit using different materials.

It's also good that contact has been made with the relevant conservation people and hopefully they will have given verbal agreement to the proposed works, particularly the use of reed instead of straw, in which case the LBC application is really just recording the works and obtaining the formal consent. Or should be.

Go for it and use the money saved on unnecessary professional fees on the repairs themselves!

 

[malcolm]

If the current render type is only assumed then why not assume it is lime and not cement allowing you to get on with it and do a like for like repair using lime without the need for any permission. The requirement to not change material is intended to stop people from using cement render, so they are unlikely to insist you replace any newly applied lime render with cement.

They will probably be much more fussy about the change of materials for the roof and even I wouldn't do that would need permission.

 

[AlexK]

What is key, is that your level of detail presented needs to be proportional to the level of work you’re proposing to the building, and specifically any areas of greater significance.

Drawings don’t have to be perfect, I’ve seen many hand drawn, BUT scale is essential otherwise they reject them.

You may stumble a bit of straw is a really key element of the local thatching vernacular and you wish to change.

Cement render to lime should be a no brainer. Any photos showing historic traces of lime plaster/lime wash will help your cause when you do some test area removals. Equally any old photos of the building from the archives that could show the same.

Ok, interesting, thank you.

I ma having a dig through the planning portal tonight to get an idea of how the pictures should look and how the reports should be presented.

Will have to get my drawing pencils out! It won't be perfect by any stretch, and getting the scale will require a bit of maths, but sounds like it can be done.

Yeah, tricky one about the straw. I have no idea how they will handle that one. Thatching straw really in short supply apparently.

 

[AlexK]

I second Kearn's comments. Much depends on the extent of the proposed works but what's being described here sounds pretty straightforward and I wouldn't hesitate to make the LBC submission myself. I've done two submissions myself with no problems, using hand-drawn sketches, simple powerpoint diagrams and photos. The important thing is to clearly explain the proposed works and why, which in this case seems to amount to effectively a like-for-like repair, allbeit using different materials.

It's also good that contact has been made with the relevant conservation people and hopefully they will have given verbal agreement to the proposed works, particularly the use of reed instead of straw, in which case the LBC application is really just recording the works and obtaining the formal consent. Or should be.

Go for it and use the money saved on unnecessary professional fees on the repairs themselves!

That's reassuring!

I did fear that submission to the council would require an architect but sounds like I won't need to, as long as the application is sufficient.

I'm going to aim to get the plan in ASAP, as I know it will take ages for a decision and I really want the works done before summer ends.

They seem more than happy about the change in material for the render but didn't give me much in the form of feedback re. The straw/reed.

On the thatching FB group, I'm sure I read something about council's being informed about the shortage in thatching straw and that there is a possibility they may have to be lenient on the change of material should the homeowner notify them of changes. Hopefully that has happened and they can approve my repairs. It's only a temporary use thing.

 

[AlexK]

If the current render type is only assumed then why not assume it is lime and not cement allowing you to get on with it and do a like for like repair using lime without the need for any permission. The requirement to not change material is intended to stop people from using cement render, so they are unlikely to insist you replace any newly applied lime render with cement.

They will probably be much more fussy about the change of materials for the roof and even I wouldn't do that would need permission.

You're quite right. I would happily have continued using the same mindset, but the chap doing the work for me asked to get a conservation officer on board, who quickly informed me that they weren't on board and that I would need to apply for LBC..

But yes, had we not informed them, they wouldn't have known. We are still only assuming it's cement, so could just crack on and fix it up. But I'll see if by builder friend is happy to continue on that basis.

We can't wait too long - it's going to fall off soon!

 

[Kearn]

You're quite right. I would happily have continued using the same mindset, but the chap doing the work for me asked to get a conservation officer on board, who quickly informed me that they weren't on board and that I would need to apply for LBC..

But yes, had we not informed them, they wouldn't have known. We are still only assuming it's cement, so could just crack on and fix it up. But I'll see if by builder friend is happy to continue on that basis.

We can't wait too long - it's going to fall off soon!

‘Falling off’ is never a bad thing. Even more so even it genuinely does actually fall off…

 

[Stevers]

Similarly, the roof is thatched in straw, but as there's a shortage of it straw, the thatcher can only get hold of Reed. Again, another change.

A lady I once worked with who'd done a bit of thatching used to advise us to 'drink through the feeling sick stage it will be fine', but much more usefully she also told us that the problem with straw vs. reed thatch is actually 'shape'. Long straw gives that pillowy, plump, softly rounded look that you see in the West Country whereas reed can be and usually is much straighter, thinner and generally crisper. Once you know what to look for you'll see what is meant. Reed thatches in East Anglia really do look different, but it's mostly the shape. It might help your case if the thatcher is happy to contrive that plumper, softer more pillowy look whilst still using reed.

 

[AlexK]

A lady I once worked with who'd done a bit of thatching used to advise us to 'drink through the feeling sick stage it will be fine', but much more usefully she also told us that the problem with straw vs. reed thatch is actually 'shape'. Long straw gives that pillowy, plump, softly rounded look that you see in the West Country whereas reed can be and usually is much straighter, thinner and generally crisper. Once you know what to look for you'll see what is meant. Reed thatches in East Anglia really do look different, but it's mostly the shape. It might help your case if the thatcher is happy to contrive that plumper, softer more pillowy look whilst still using reed.

You're quite right.

We're a semi-detached, and our neighbour is partly thatched and we're fully thatched. our straw roof and her reed roof are joined and you can clearly see a difference - ours does have more volume in it and is clearly thicker.

But the reed is undoubtedly more durable. Evidenced by the fact that our roof has been damaged by Jackdaws and hers hasn't!

Good point re. The thatcher though.

 

[AlexK]

‘Falling off’ is never a bad thing. Even more so even it genuinely does actually fall off…

Absolutely.. we're definitely at that point, and then who knows what the render was!

 

[Stevers]

We're a semi-detached, and our neighbour is partly thatched and we're fully thatched. our straw roof and her reed roof are joined and you can clearly see a difference

Isn't that in itself sufficient precedent for using reed?

 

[Flyfisher]

That's reassuring!

I did fear that submission to the council would require an architect but sounds like I won't need to, as long as the application is sufficient.

I'm going to aim to get the plan in ASAP, as I know it will take ages for a decision and I really want the works done before summer ends.

There's no specific requirement to use an architect. I've made four successful LBC applications, two entirely by myself and two using an architect because they were for extension works and beyond my ability. Each application is different.

As for the decision time, check on your council's website. My council's target time is a decision within 13 weeks and they were never late. The two I submitted myself were about 8 weeks as I recall, I guess because they were quite straightforward.

 

[AlexK]

Isn't that in itself sufficient precedent for using reed?

I will certainly use it as a contributing factor!

 

[AlexK]

There's no specific requirement to use an architect. I've made four successful LBC applications, two entirely by myself and two using an architect because they were for extension works and beyond my ability. Each application is different.

As for the decision time, check on your council's website. My council's target time is a decision within 13 weeks and they were never late. The two I submitted myself were about 8 weeks as I recall, I guess because they were quite straightforward.

That's really good to hear.

I'm currently getting info together on sketches and plans. Getting it all to scale will probably be the tricky bit but not impossible.

I'm just relieved it isn't an architect job.

Spoke to the builder chap today who is adamant he wants the council on board. So I'll go through with the LBC.

 

[Flyfisher]

I don't recall my own drawings and sketches were strictly to scale but they were clearly dimensioned. Again, each application is different and some things will require more detail than others.

Interesting that the builder is adamant about getting LBC, and good for him, though my understanding is that it's the property owner who is responsible for all works, whether it's DIY or whether they employ a builder. Thus, a builder should not be liable for unauthorised works when instructed by the owner. Having said that, perhaps the builder might have some liability if they knowingly carry out unauthorised works?