Another Quarry Tile Conundrum

[hayleyquinnx]

Hello all, I've seen a fair few posts on here about quarry tiles whilst searching for my own solution, but everyone's situation is slightly different so I thought it best to post myself and see what people think.

So we're in the middle of buying a 1920s semi detached. It used to have a separate kitchen and dining room but some decades ago the wall was knocked through and its all very nice.

The surveyor discovered that we've got the classic browny red plane square quarry tiles in the kitchen, though he doesn't know if this extends to the dining room as well.

He's advised that the whole area has a fair bit of damp coming from the floor and the quarry tiles are hidden beneath a thick layer of salt efflorescence. He only knew it was brown tiles because he scrubbed away a section.

He's advised that they're laid directly on earth which seemed to be common at the time. He's said this means we have no damp proofing and it's liable to damage other things over time if we don't address it.

Now unlike a lot of the people here, I'm not attached to the tiles at all, if they were a nicer colour or in a pleasant pattern I'd be interested but I've never liked that kind of brown colour. That said, I know they're historical and one of the few original parts left so I may endeavour to carefully attempt removal of them and use them somewhere else in the building for decoration. I'm just not a fan of an all brown kitchen floor.

If it looks like we can't remove them without ruining them I'll maybe reconsider, but it doesn't help our damp problem.

What's the best way to go about this? If I can remove them and keep them intact, is it just digging out the ground layer and then having DPM and insulation added along with concrete? Then we can tile over?

I know they say never to tile or concrete over the tiles so I don't want to do that as that just traps moisture in and that's what the previous owner did by running lino over it.

Additionally, the lino runs the full length of both the kitchen and diner, total of 215sq ft, and we have no idea if the tiles extend beyond the kitchen or if the diner has wooden floorboards.

We're likely to complete next week so the first thing I want to do is pull up the lino and see if it's 215sq ft of tiles or a much smaller amount. As the dining room is the majority of the space.

When we move in I'm likely going to knock on a few neighbours doors and ask them what they did as I can see online that a lot of the adjacent homes have had recent renovations. I'll have to take a look again to see if any of them kept their quarry tiles.

I'm just not sure what the best course of action is if we are able to remove them in one piece and I can find somewhere to reuse them later, as I couldn't find a lot about the costs of essentially laying a brand new floor from earth level.

Any thoughts? Also if we kept the tiles, say they are revealed to have a cool checkered pattern or something I'd want to keep, how do we deal with the lack of insulation and the high damp risk?

 

[Cubist]

It is almost certain that the dining room floor of this house is of the suspended wooden type while the old kitchen area would most likely be of un-reinforced concrete - not earth as your surveyor suggests. Regarding the latter; if/when you move in get rid of the Lino immediately and let the tiles, and the concrete slab below, breathe for a few months - most of the salt will easily wash off. You never know the tiles may grow on you but if not, they should be relatively easy to lift and replace with something more to your liking. The tiles themselves are unlikely to be anything very special, they certainly will not be multi-coloured or patterned. the thing though that you do need to be aware of is that the tiles were likely laid on the floor before all the kitchen cabinetry , sinks, etc. were installed. It may then be necessary to remove and re-site all of these to match the new height achieved by your chosen flooring material - after the finished height of that has been matched to the old suspended timber floors it must meet.

 

[hayleyquinnx]

I believe he was fairly confident that they were laid directly on the earth, not sure exactly how he knows but if so, what are my options then?

 

[Kearn]

I believe he was fairly confident that they were laid directly on the earth, not sure exactly how he knows but if so, what are my options then?

He doesn’t know. Confidence is one thing… but a lot of surveyors have a very misplaced source of said confidence. Big red flag - he’s suggesting a lack of damp proof course being an issue and leading to damp. Which is utter rubbish.

If, they are genuinely old clay tiles, directly on earth, then leave them be - they will wick away any moisture as long as the gaps and surfaces can evaporate freely.

The only risk of damp is covering them with a modern material which doesn’t allow the moisture evaporate, instead trapping it.

Or far worse still, believing someone like this and installing a sold concrete slab with damp proof membrane, which will almost certainly force the ground moisture into your walls to present itself.

 

[hayleyquinnx]

Well that's exactly what has happened, is they've laid lino over it so now it's covered in salt.

But we're not wanting to keep it as is so I'm wondering what the best way to replace it is if it is laid directly on earth.

From what I understand, it's very common for 1920s houses to have the quarry tiles directly on the earth like that.

There is already damp in the walls, it's why he's suggesting that we sort out a damp proof seal in the ground first.

Also how would a lack of damp proofing causing damp be rubbish? Seems pretty conceivable to me?

 

[Kearn]

Sounds like there’s some reading up on old properties, their construction and how they were designed to manage moisture… search this forum and get yourself a couple of old house books to understand the basics of how the fabric functions if you’re serious about being a custodian of one. It will save you much tearing your hair out, money, time, and allow you the knowledge to do the right thing once and be able to deflect many of the cowboy traders out there playing the heritage card when they haven’t the experience.

For a solid walled building, you do not stop moisture, you enable and facilitate its movement in and out of the fabric. It comes, it goes. From the ground, out the floor. Into the walls and out again. Ventilation, evaporation, low level heating, hydroscopic materials to manage the moisture and slow down these processes.

Damp on the walls will be due to the Lino. Pushing the moisture sideways to escape.
I’d also hazard that the walls have gypsum and plastic paint on them, bubbling and flaking.

 

[hayleyquinnx]

That makes sense as the rest of the walls have ventilation to allow the movement and one area in particular has been damaged and the owner has attempted (poorly) to replaster and has broken the damp proof seal that exists in the rest of the walls.

In any case, it seems not uncommon for homes of this time to have quarry tiles straight on the earth. If this is discovered to be the case in the coming weeks as we continue the purchase, What's the best method to remodel if we don't want to keep the tiles in that room and want to try to preserve them for later use elsewhere?

I assume that if there is no concrete under there, that the ground would need to be dug out, and new foundations for floorings laid to match the correct placement of the fittings and fixtures as they are currently? We're not planning to immediately renovate the entire kitchen, but we're advised that if we didn't want to keep the tile then we'd likely need to have the entire floor redone due to the belief that it was laid on earth and nothing else.

I can't find a lot of information online about the best options for what to do in the evening that your kitchen floor essentially has no insulation or separation from the ground besides a single layer of tiles, though I've seen it happen fairly frequently but in most instances I could find, the owner kept the quarry tiles as they were. Which in this case I obviously don't want to do as I'm not keen on the look of them and think they might be better utilized elsewhere in the home.

I just can't seem to get clarity on if the best options are to dig it out and have concrete out in, or if it's better to insulate with something then put floorboards in, or if it's better to build foundational wooden supports and fill those in with something and then cover it with something I can tile.

I just can't work out what you do if it IS built on earth.

Hell, if it's built on concrete it's clearly still letting moisture through and they'll likely be salt deposits all over that too. Is there truly no way to prevent the damp coming in from the ground, are the only options exposing the tiles with no insulation or damp proofing?

 

[Kearn]

Damp proofing is NOT an option.


‘…damp proof seal that exists on the rest of the walls’ is a very worrying statement. A traditionally built house should have nothing impermeable on the walls.

Have a google into limecrete floor makeups - all the usual suspects have how-to guides on their websites, or a search for limecrete / limecrete floors in this forum.

The important part of this entire build up is the recycled foamed glass sub layer - it acts as the capillary break, prevent ground moisture reaching the slab above as well as providing insulation, and being a structural type 1 alternative.

However, there’s a different angle that doesn’t sit well of pulling out original fabric as you don’t like it or assume it will be cold. There are many ways to skin the cat, listed building control presumably may play a part, but if not then doing the right thing for the building and yourselves long term is worth researching upfront to save many issues.

Always best to live in a building for at least 4 seasons to fully understand it and how you will use it…

 

[Flyfisher]

Well that's exactly what has happened, is they've laid lino over it so now it's covered in salt.

But we're not wanting to keep it as is so I'm wondering what the best way to replace it is if it is laid directly on earth.

It's a pity you don't want to keep them as the problems you've described are likely to be due to the lino covering rather than the tiles themselves, whatever they are laid on.

We had a large room with pamments (similar tiles) laid directly on earth and they looked fine. When we moved in, we used the room for storing most of the moving boxes while we gradually unpacked. Some months later when we finally got down to the boxes actually sitting on the tiles, we discovered that the base of the boxes were damp and falling apart, even though the tiles that had not been covered showed no signs of damp. It was an early lesson about the importance of breathability!

It's also easily demonstrated with a rubber glove. Our hands are generally quite dry, but put on a rubber glove and within 10 minutes the hand will be quite damp and sweaty because the natural evaporation of moisture from the hand is trapped by the rubber glove and cannot dissipate into the air. Remove the glove and the hand will quickly revert to being 'dry', even though it is still releasing misture into the air. It's a similar thing with the floor. It's also why ventilation is so important for old properties, so that the moisture 'breathed out' by the fabric of the house is not itself trapped within the house and can easily escape to the outside air.

When breathability and ventilation is working properly, ie when the house has reached an effective equilibrium, these sort of damp 'problems' often just disappear. But it can take some time for new occupants to learn how their particular house 'works' and why, as @Kearn rightly says above, "Always best to live in a building for at least 4 seasons to fully understand it and how you will use it…"

 

[mardinor]

We bought a house with a similar issue: lino over quarry tiles laid on earth. Lots of efflorescence all over under the lino. We removed the lino and did nothing for a year while we renovated the rest of the house. The foot traffic and builder dust created a perfect abrasive to remove the efflorescence. We then washed and scrubbed after a year. No damp proof membrane. No quarry tile sealer. Just strategic neglect. It's now been a fantastic functional and beautiful floor for 25 years with no damp at all.
Using Flyfisher's analogy we took off the rubber glove, used our hands for a bit then gave them a wash. They have been dry ever since.

Honestly, if you don't want to do that then don't complete teh purchase