Best stain and finish for stairs

[Stevers]

Is water stain not a good idea?

Forty odd years ago when I started my DIY career, spirit stains were universally used; I have all the colours I would ever need in stock, so have never tried water stains. The powder disappearing when water is applied must be a good sign.

Nowadays I would always use an oilwax finish rather than any sort of varnish, although I have recently used shellac for some cupboard knobs and a piano stool that I tidied up. Shellac with its far greater ability to be refinished is definitely a cut above any sort of varnish.

 

[Coles]

Forty odd years ago when I started my DIY career, spirit stains were universally used; I have all the colours I would ever need in stock, so have never tried water stains. The powder disappearing when water is applied must be a good sign.

Nowadays I would always use an oilwax finish rather than any sort of varnish, although I have recently used shellac for some cupboard knobs and a piano stool that I tidied up. Shellac with its far greater ability to be refinished is definitely a cut above any sort of varnish.

Thanks so much. You have given me hope as this has been an incredibly painful process.

The only reason I went with a water stain was reading Toby Newells website. But I was thinking a light fast stain would be better, I was then going to do shellac and go over it with a final finish that was stair friendly.

 

[Coles]

I also tried to sand it down using a 80 grit. All looked great then 2 hours later it's back.

I think i will just sand it down to 120 and then try the stain and see what happens.

 

[Eurotrash]

A water-based stain is a good idea if you intend to apply shellac afterwards. Just be aware it can be difficult to apply over large areas. It goes on more easily, in that it penetrates better, if you sand to 120 or less but you need to work quickly so it remains even. It will go on more evenly if you sand to 180 or finer but won't penetrate as easily. Sanding to 120 is usually a happy medium but it depends on the timber.

I've used Mylands stains mostly and occasionally Liberon water-based pigments but I usually make my own. One of the best and cheapest ways to make a water-based stain is using Van Dyke crystals mixed with water pigments or raw earth pigments. A little goes a very long way. I use Mylands. Your Morrell's stains will mix with Van Dyke crystals. I find the tone usually neutral on pine but easily adjusted for warmth or coolness.

Before deciding on a finish, decide what type of finish you want or need. Aesthetically a shellac/wax finish would is best in nearly all cases and this type of finish would be greatly enhanced by a water-based stain. This is not a hard-wearing finish though, nor will it be "grippy". If aesthetics are less important than wear, which may be the case on stairs/hallway then shellac and a polyurethane lacquer might be better. Would still benefit from stain. This will be very hard-wearing, especially if you use a two-part lacquer. Expensive though.

I would use either Mylands shellac barrier seal or similar from Jenkyns, Morrell's, Fiddes - make sure it's dewaxed shellac. It's easy to make from flakes. The best wax I've ever used, again is Mylands. It goes on better than any other wax, buffs really nicely and can be thinned with turps. Harrel's is also good. I would not use Briwax, Liberon or Fiddes.

Osmo is a varnish despite what it says on the tin. Varnish started life as a product made with tree sap resin and solvent but there are now many types of varnish. It can be alkyd, acrylic, oil, spirit, water-based or bituminous (the black gunk people find on their Victorian floorboards) I would avoid Osmo products personally. In my opinion they are overpriced because they use cheap materials. They give fancy names to what are essentially cheap varnishes. They are high in VOCs, difficult to sand and difficult to repair and will also oxidise and turn yellow over time. I think they have gained popularity due to the insta "reno community" who name-drop it all over their socials like it's the greatest discovery ever and so people think they're missing out if they don't use it. It's crap.

If the discolouring on floorboards is going to bother you, I would turn them over and use the other side or just replace them. If you can't get a decent colour match on the new floor boards it may still look better than light patches. May be less noticeable on stairs as well.

 

[Coles]

Thank you for the indepth reply.

What is the best shellac to get? I have a very small pot of Morrells white shellac sealer which was sent with the stain samples.

Can you use a cloth or is a brush better?

I have sanded to 120 but I am concerned the stain will look a mess.

As you can see in the photo there are patches on some of the risers that won't come off.




I can try bleaching them again.

Do you think this can be blended in with a water stain?

In Morrells range I was thinking of Teak as it's quite dark.

 

[Cubist]

A couple of questions for you;

• When you applied the bleach did you paint it only onto the stained area or over the complete face of the boards?
• When sanding the surface did you notice whether the paper skated over these stains until you applied heavy pressure? Or noticed the paper beginning to clog?

 

[Stevers]

Osmo is a varnish despite what it says on the tin.

Well the two Osmo products I've used (including Polyx) are nothing like any varnish I've ever used!

https://priorypolishes.co.uk/osmo-oil-facts-questions-and-answers/
From the Priory Polishes website:

Osmo is not a varnish, Their Polyx range is a Hard wax oil made from a blend of natural oils and waxes. Hard Wax Oil is more or less as hard a finish as a varnish but it is easier to apply and leaves a nicer finish. It is also a far easier finish to touch up and repair as you can simply re-apply the oil over the surface without having to remove previous finishes.

A long while ago I (successfully) used a boiled linseed oil/white spirit mix on elm boards, and the Osmo finishes that I've used have reminded me of that.

 

[Coles]

A couple of questions for you;

• When you applied the bleach did you paint it only onto the stained area or over the complete face of the boards?
• When sanding the surface did you notice whether the paper skated over these stains until you applied heavy pressure? Or noticed the paper beginning to clog?

The darker patch in the picture was there from the start.

I mostly put the bleach over those patches. I started on some with Liberon wood bleach and it worked really well.

I ran out so used Rustins over the other blotches and some darker areas on the treads.

That was I saw quite quickly a white residue appeared so washed it off with water.

There has been no problem with the sanding, it just seems these dark blotches are really deep into the wood. The sander went over them no problem.

 

[Coles]

Well the two Osmo products I've used (including Polyx) are nothing like any varnish I've ever used!

https://priorypolishes.co.uk/osmo-oil-facts-questions-and-answers/
From the Priory Polishes website:

Osmo is not a varnish, Their Polyx range is a Hard wax oil made from a blend of natural oils and waxes. Hard Wax Oil is more or less as hard a finish as a varnish but it is easier to apply and leaves a nicer finish. It is also a far easier finish to touch up and repair as you can simply re-apply the oil over the surface without having to remove previous finishes.

A long while ago I used a linseed oil/white spirit mix on elm boards, and the Osmo finishes that I've used have reminded me of that.

As its stairs I wanted to use something like that but then read posts on here from Toby Newell talking about Osmo being the devils spawn.

I'm sure I used Osmo on floors at my old house with no issue.

I find it totally confusing.

I now have the water stain I want from Morrells but the finish is the part I am worried about getting wrong.

 

[Cubist]

Glad to hear that. Some people mistakenly apply the bleach to the whole board.

My other questions were based on the thought that these are oil stains of one sort or another, though why such would be limited to these small areas eludes me. Nevertheless, an oil stain can penetrate to great depth and will resist almost all efforts to remove them, even with coarse grade sandpaper. I'm not sure what the white residue you're seeing may be but theres a small possibility that the bleach, or more likely the neutraliser is lifting a small amount of the oil and this could then be drying to create the residue. But frankly I'm speculating. There a non-destructive test you can perform to see if its an oil stain using a pad of kitchen towel and a domestic iron. Get the iron hot and run it over the towel while it's pressed against the stain being careful not to linger too long in any one spot. Any oil present will transfer to the towel and should be visible - particularly under a strong light.

If the stains do prove to be an oil then it will be extremely difficult to avoid a patchy finish using a water based stain. It would be much easier to balance and blend the the shading using an oil based solution.

 

[Cubist]

BTW and echoing @Stevers I too have had some good experiences with the Osmo products and will often use them.

 

[Coles]

Glad to hear that. Some people mistakenly apply the bleach to the whole board.

My other questions were based on the thought that these are oil stains of one sort or another, though why such would be limited to these small areas eludes me. Nevertheless, an oil stain can penetrate to great depth and will resist almost all efforts to remove them, even with coarse grade sandpaper. I'm not sure what the white residue you're seeing may be but theres a small possibility that the bleach, or more likely the neutraliser is lifting a small amount of the oil and this could then be drying to create the residue. But frankly I'm speculating. There a non-destructive test you can perform to see if its an oil stain using a pad of kitchen towel and a domestic iron. Get the iron hot and run it over the towel while it's pressed against the stain being careful not to linger too long in any one spot. Any oil present will transfer to the towel and should be visible - particularly under a strong light.

If the stains do prove to be an oil then it will be extremely difficult to avoid a patchy finish using a water based stain. It would be much easier to balance and blend the the shading using an oil based solution.

Thanks. I thought perhaps it was the Klingstrip I used. From what what I can tell its only where the original paint was. So the middle parts of the stair are fine as they didn't have paint on them.

When I first removed the Klingstip the dark patch colour was uniform. At this point I assumed that was the bare wood colour. Then when I sanded l, some of the darker tone came off leaving lighter wood, leaving it patchy in places as some of the darker tone refuses to budge regardless of how much I sand.

I took off years of paint so could it be something to do with the original paint that was used? Obviously some sort of lead paint.

I will try the iron and see what happens.

 

[Eurotrash]

A long while ago I (successfully) used a boiled linseed oil/white spirit mix on elm boards, and the Osmo finishes that I've used have reminded me of that

That's because it's varnish.

Varnish = drying oil, such as linseed oil, or resin or both + solvent
Your oil varnish = drying oil (boiled (polymerised, which aids curing) linseed oil) + white spirit (solvent)

 

[Eurotrash]

Thank you for the indepth reply.

What is the best shellac to get? I have a very small pot of Morrells white shellac sealer which was sent with the stain samples.

Can you use a cloth or is a brush better?

I have sanded to 120 but I am concerned the stain will look a mess.

As you can see in the photo there are patches on some of the risers that won't come off.

View attachment 16769


I can try bleaching them again.

Do you think this can be blended in with a water stain?

In Morrells range I was thinking of Teak as it's quite dark.

I would go with Mylands for shellac but you can experiment with the Morrell's since you have a sample so you will know what to expect if you use it. I've used Morrell's french polish shellac but it was a long time ago but don't remember there being anything wrong with it.

I would use a polishing mop to apply the shellac.

I don't think you could blend it with stain - worth a try?

Why are you worried about the stain looking a mess? With regards to that, it comes down to personal taste and the rest of your colour scheme. If your aim is to just cover up this stain then try to colour match your Morell's stain to the stain in the wood. From the picture it looks like the amount of depth you would stain an in-the-white pine for achieving a normal repro/P7/M7 colour - fairly normal. So a stripped pine or light/medium oak colour might work. This is only based on what I can see though. Remember that darker colours will absorb light and create the illusion of less space - lighter is the opposite. There is a trend for darker finished stairs now as well as darker colour schemes in general.

Without knowing what's caused the stain it's hard to say. It could have penetrated quite deeply - a spillage or a spill taking carpet dye with it. I wouldn't keep sanding in case it's deep.

 

[Stevers]

That's because it's varnish.

I suppose the pedantic could class Osmo type finishes as an 'oil varnish' at a stretch.

To me a 'varnish' is a hard finish that sits on top of the wood and can easily chip and mark, can eventually peel, and are tricky to refinish. In my experience 'Osmo' type oilwax finishes soak in and protect the surface better and are easier to refinish.

 

[Eurotrash]

I suppose the pedantic could class Osmo type finishes as an 'oil varnish' at a stretch.

To me a 'varnish' is a hard finish that sits on top of the wood and can easily chip and mark, can eventually peel, and are tricky to refinish. In my experience 'Osmo' type oilwax finishes soak in and protect the surface better and are easier to refinish.

Varnish is a broad range of products with fairly clear definitions and not really open to interpretation. Osmo is a product with made-up names like "Polyx" (don't forget the registered trademark) with marketing waffle with claims that it uses "natural vegetable oils to help nourish the wood and retain flexibility." Which is utter nonsense.

It's not really a stretch. I would class Osmo as varnish by any definition. Just because the company that produces it insist on it being a "hard wax oil" and websites selling it claim it's not a varnish doesn't make it so. It shares ingredients with bitumen varnishes (hydrocarbons) such as paraffin, paraffin wax and white spirit, alkyd varnish (fatty acids) derived from vegetable oil - soybean oil, sunflower oil and thistle oil and or course, siccatives.

It's varnish. A poor quality, slow-drying varnish with low durability which is high in VOCs and non-organic compounds.

Use it by all means, but there are better products out there that are less costly, more durable and better for the environment. I have no ulterior motive here, I have no association with any company. I'm just telling it like it is based on years of experience. I use these materials regularly.

 

[Coles]

A water-based stain is a good idea if you intend to apply shellac afterwards. Just be aware it can be difficult to apply over large areas. It goes on more easily, in that it penetrates better, if you sand to 120 or less but you need to work quickly so it remains even. It will go on more evenly if you sand to 180 or finer but won't penetrate as easily. Sanding to 120 is usually a happy medium but it depends on the timber.

I've used Mylands stains mostly and occasionally Liberon water-based pigments but I usually make my own. One of the best and cheapest ways to make a water-based stain is using Van Dyke crystals mixed with water pigments or raw earth pigments. A little goes a very long way. I use Mylands. Your Morrell's stains will mix with Van Dyke crystals. I find the tone usually neutral on pine but easily adjusted for warmth or coolness.

Before deciding on a finish, decide what type of finish you want or need. Aesthetically a shellac/wax finish would is best in nearly all cases and this type of finish would be greatly enhanced by a water-based stain. This is not a hard-wearing finish though, nor will it be "grippy". If aesthetics are less important than wear, which may be the case on stairs/hallway then shellac and a polyurethane lacquer might be better. Would still benefit from stain. This will be very hard-wearing, especially if you use a two-part lacquer. Expensive though.

I would use either Mylands shellac barrier seal or similar from Jenkyns, Morrell's, Fiddes - make sure it's dewaxed shellac. It's easy to make from flakes. The best wax I've ever used, again is Mylands. It goes on better than any other wax, buffs really nicely and can be thinned with turps. Harrel's is also good. I would not use Briwax, Liberon or Fiddes.

Osmo is a varnish despite what it says on the tin. Varnish started life as a product made with tree sap resin and solvent but there are now many types of varnish. It can be alkyd, acrylic, oil, spirit, water-based or bituminous (the black gunk people find on their Victorian floorboards) I would avoid Osmo products personally. In my opinion they are overpriced because they use cheap materials. They give fancy names to what are essentially cheap varnishes. They are high in VOCs, difficult to sand and difficult to repair and will also oxidise and turn yellow over time. I think they have gained popularity due to the insta "reno community" who name-drop it all over their socials like it's the greatest discovery ever and so people think they're missing out if they don't use it. It's crap.

If the discolouring on floorboards is going to bother you, I would turn them over and use the other side or just replace them. If you can't get a decent colour match on the new floor boards it may still look better than light patches. May be less noticeable on stairs as well.

On my landing I have gone over the boards with my orbital sander and added the Teak Morrells water stain, followed by the shellac. It looks great not sanded with those hefty machines.

So I want to use the same stain on the stairs but will need to put something over the shellac that isn't wax (slip hazzard). Or I could wait until the runner is down and then just wax the sides.

 

[Coles]

I was sent samples of Morrells water stains from an online retailer (30ml) and there is a really strong chemical smell to them. Should that be the case with water stains?

 

[fernicarry]

I didn't notice any strong smells from the Morrells stain.

 

[Coles]

I didn't notice any strong smells from the Morrells stain.

Thanks. I read this company had a habit of making mistakes with their samples but it seems to be fine. I think there was something on the bottle itself rather than the wrong stain.