Hi All. - I am a new member and wonder if I could ask for some advice. We are the proud new owners of a Grade II Listed thatched cob cottage in Devon. We have a end wall which is about 3/4 ft below soil level. The previous occupiers appear to have painted bitumen on the wall and floor and it has failed because the room smells of stale sweat and the floor is damp. The neighbours garden land butts up to the wall hence the soil level. I would appreciate if anybody has a suggestion as to the best action to take. I have read about a French drain but I'm not sure if the neighbour would allow us to dig up his garden. Any advice appreciated and a Happy New Year to you all.
- Thread starter elizabeth
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Keithj
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Oh dear!
3 to 4 feet below ground level is a long way down. It would be possible to put in a French drain, but as you say you would need your neighbour's permission if your wall is also your boundary.
Typically, any waterproof substance put on a wall such as that will make things worse rather than better. For more information, you need someone with more expertise: if your local conservation officer is of a helpful disposition, his/her advice may be an early port of call.
3 to 4 feet below ground level is a long way down. It would be possible to put in a French drain, but as you say you would need your neighbour's permission if your wall is also your boundary.
Typically, any waterproof substance put on a wall such as that will make things worse rather than better. For more information, you need someone with more expertise: if your local conservation officer is of a helpful disposition, his/her advice may be an early port of call.
Hi Keith - thank you for your comment. I posted this topic twice because I initially thought I had n't sent it but it was kindly explained to me that first time members need to be considered more (understandble) before first comments are posted. It's nice to know you have found this site a great support and I'm looking forward to being a fully fledged member.
I agree with your comment about seeking professional help. We have been in for a month and have yet to meet the Conservation Officer. Just a little nervous about the possibility incase we get a list of jobs to do as long as our arm (UPVC windows and cement render to start) but it's got to be done if we are to care for this fantastic property. Already looking at sites for craftsmen with experience of cob.
I agree with your comment about seeking professional help. We have been in for a month and have yet to meet the Conservation Officer. Just a little nervous about the possibility incase we get a list of jobs to do as long as our arm (UPVC windows and cement render to start) but it's got to be done if we are to care for this fantastic property. Already looking at sites for craftsmen with experience of cob.
Keithj
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Most COs are reasonable, helpful people with a job to do to prevent "heritage" being lost.
Ours has some simple principles, and is very helpful. His basic "rule" is "no change from what's there now, unless there's a good reason". For example, when repairing some badly rotten window frames, we mentioned "double glazed" - at which point, he coughed and looked worried. "Tudor houses didn't have double glazing!" said he. "No, but this one already has" said I. He looked closer, said "Well blow me!" and authorised the works we wanted to do. No change from what's there now, so OK.
If you already have uPVC, and there's no evidence that it was put there in contravention of the rules, then you should have no problem keeping it (for now). If you want to replace wooden with uPVC you will have an uphill struggle
If you want to replace uPVC with all-new oak frames, I suspect you won't have too much difficulty - although a lady near us has a thatched cottage with metal windows, and her local CO won't let her replace them with oak. I think that's an unusual aberration.
Cement render is a "no-no" on timber frames, and particularly if it covers the timber completely. If you haven't already seen my horror story, take a peek at http://jillings.org/tudor/
We joined the Listed Property Owners Club, which aims to provide useful information and links to suitable craftsmen. We were advised by friends with a 14th century property that "it's worth a try". The LPOC directory gave several names of firms nearby specialising in listed property, but they had either disappeared in the meantime, didn't answer their telephone, or were so busy they couldn't even come and look for 18 months or longer. The firm we eventually used contacted us following an application for planning permission to add an extension.
If you're lucky, someone on here will know the right person in your area.
Ours has some simple principles, and is very helpful. His basic "rule" is "no change from what's there now, unless there's a good reason". For example, when repairing some badly rotten window frames, we mentioned "double glazed" - at which point, he coughed and looked worried. "Tudor houses didn't have double glazing!" said he. "No, but this one already has" said I. He looked closer, said "Well blow me!" and authorised the works we wanted to do. No change from what's there now, so OK.
If you already have uPVC, and there's no evidence that it was put there in contravention of the rules, then you should have no problem keeping it (for now). If you want to replace wooden with uPVC you will have an uphill struggle
If you want to replace uPVC with all-new oak frames, I suspect you won't have too much difficulty - although a lady near us has a thatched cottage with metal windows, and her local CO won't let her replace them with oak. I think that's an unusual aberration.Cement render is a "no-no" on timber frames, and particularly if it covers the timber completely. If you haven't already seen my horror story, take a peek at http://jillings.org/tudor/
We joined the Listed Property Owners Club, which aims to provide useful information and links to suitable craftsmen. We were advised by friends with a 14th century property that "it's worth a try". The LPOC directory gave several names of firms nearby specialising in listed property, but they had either disappeared in the meantime, didn't answer their telephone, or were so busy they couldn't even come and look for 18 months or longer. The firm we eventually used contacted us following an application for planning permission to add an extension.
If you're lucky, someone on here will know the right person in your area.
vicky whitworth
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Hello Elisabeth, welcome!
Whereabouts in Devon are you? If you are in East Devon I can recommend a cob expert who's excellent.
Whereabouts in Devon are you? If you are in East Devon I can recommend a cob expert who's excellent.
Two solutions - leave the wall wet or dry the wall out.elizabeth said:
To dry the wall out will require a french drain below the level of inside floor level or better yet, a gully to the same depth with a grill on the top or similar. Both are going to be difficult to do at the depth you require.
If you leave the wall wet (depending on the construction - not always a good thing) then you can use a modern tanking method of your choice to seal the moisture into the wall / floor and stop if making its way into the room. The moisture will of course always be trying to get through and around the ends of the tanking so if you can't seal it well you will still have damp.
Drying the wall out would be my preferred solution so I would suggest inviting the neighbours around for a cup of tea and a kitkat or two to discuss.
As listed, any solution will have to be discussed with CO too.
Hi All - thank you for your comments. I will be less nervous now about inviting the CO around especially as the UPVC windows look no different from the originals from the Listed photo. They were installed twelve years ago and being at the front of the property over looking the garden, they are not visible by the public from the road so have never been questioned.
As for the cob wall I like the advice of attempting to let it dry out as the better solution. We will have to convince the neighbours very politely over an extra large mug of tea and hope they will allow us to dig a channel. We live near to Crediton so I would be very grateful to know of a recommended tradesman please Vicky.
Many thanks
As for the cob wall I like the advice of attempting to let it dry out as the better solution. We will have to convince the neighbours very politely over an extra large mug of tea and hope they will allow us to dig a channel. We live near to Crediton so I would be very grateful to know of a recommended tradesman please Vicky.
Many thanks
Zebra
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The Conservation Officer can't make you change plastic windows to wood. The opinons of most people who live in listed properties, sadly perhaps I am not one, is that the conservation officer is like a free consultant, and very helpful with advice. But they can't make you make improvements, I believe. If you have plastic windows and cement render, so do many listed properties, but they can't make you put them back to timber and lime, they can only prevent you from changing timber and lime to PVC and cement. (If someone contradicts me, as I say, mine is not listed, I'm not speaking from experience, this is only what I believe to be the case...)
Also, I have built a French drain on land which is not my own, and as it's only a spade's width, (yours may have to be wider as it's so deep, I don't know) there was no objection. The land behind my submerged wall is in the churchyard, and the church were fine with a channel right up next to the wall of my house, with drainage in the bottom, filled in with gravel. You can hardly tell it's there, to be truthful, and it doesn't affect them.
I can't imagine digging a French drain four feet deep though - are you sure it's that far? Have you gone round to the other side and drilled through with a very thin long drill bit, just to see where it comes through? That's what I did, although perhaps that may not be appropriate in your case...... I don't mean to question what you say, it's just that it seems you really are very far underground....
Also, I have built a French drain on land which is not my own, and as it's only a spade's width, (yours may have to be wider as it's so deep, I don't know) there was no objection. The land behind my submerged wall is in the churchyard, and the church were fine with a channel right up next to the wall of my house, with drainage in the bottom, filled in with gravel. You can hardly tell it's there, to be truthful, and it doesn't affect them.
I can't imagine digging a French drain four feet deep though - are you sure it's that far? Have you gone round to the other side and drilled through with a very thin long drill bit, just to see where it comes through? That's what I did, although perhaps that may not be appropriate in your case...... I don't mean to question what you say, it's just that it seems you really are very far underground....
They can if the plastic windows were put in illegally in the past. It doesn't matter if it was a previous owner that changed them illegally, it is the duty of the current owner to put correct windows back in.Zebra said:
Properties can be given permission by the CO to put plastic windows in (though I would have thought that this was rare) and the property could have been listed after the plastic was put in so plastic windows are possible legally. The CO can also turn a blind eye...
Zebra
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Ah. Well there you are....
Lime
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That is the position for any illegal alteration made without consent on or in a listed building.MdB said:
JoceAndChris
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She is saying three quarters of a foot, not three feet!!!! See me after school for basic reading practice. :wink:
Welcome to the forum Elizabeth. Like Zebra, I am envious of those in a listed building with a CO to guide them, though luckily I've been able to steal the best CO in the world as a personal friend. If your CO is good, he or she really should be a tremendous support to you and not a dictator of impossible tasks!
Bear in mind the climate - the move away from Planning Regulations, the vast numbers of delistings going on because of the things spoken about in this thread. It's up to us to look after our buildings as best we can - I think we can expect less and less intervention, or protection, by authority, as the years go on.
Welcome to the forum Elizabeth. Like Zebra, I am envious of those in a listed building with a CO to guide them, though luckily I've been able to steal the best CO in the world as a personal friend. If your CO is good, he or she really should be a tremendous support to you and not a dictator of impossible tasks!
Bear in mind the climate - the move away from Planning Regulations, the vast numbers of delistings going on because of the things spoken about in this thread. It's up to us to look after our buildings as best we can - I think we can expect less and less intervention, or protection, by authority, as the years go on.
LadyArowana
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MdB said:I read that as 3 to 4 feet too.JoceAndChris said:
........ Also known as 9 inches.
Zebra
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Ah well! In that case, the french drain thing is an option. This is what mine looks like from the church side:
Not too obtrusive, I think... I would have a nice chat with your neighbours. If they understand that you are trying to do the right thing with the old house, they might well not mind. Is it very close to their house? Or right down the bottom of their garden?
There's a thread on here - called French Drain, funnily enough, where I asked for advice and tips on building one. Might be helpful.
Not too obtrusive, I think... I would have a nice chat with your neighbours. If they understand that you are trying to do the right thing with the old house, they might well not mind. Is it very close to their house? Or right down the bottom of their garden?
There's a thread on here - called French Drain, funnily enough, where I asked for advice and tips on building one. Might be helpful.
Hi All . Thank you so much for your post and your friendly welcome - you made me laugh at my silly mistake of using the wrong symbol of a slash rather than a dash. I certainly needed a laugh. The cottage wall is sadly more than 3 ft below soil level and it's at the end of the neighbours 15ft garden and marks the boundary. I can't imagine when they built the cottage that they intended it to fit into a bank of earth, was this the case in the past? I have seen other cob cottages built into the side of a hill. Seeing the picture of the French drain is a help so thanks for that and it looks very neat. I hope it has done the job . Was it done recently?
It's good to know that CO can be helpful in advising. Like you say their interest is to ensure the sympathetic care of a period property and to offer support as well as recognising it is a home, so I believe. I won't be so worried now.
I was impressed with the Tudor cottage rebuild Keith. The photo record is fabulous. Well done!
It's good to know that CO can be helpful in advising. Like you say their interest is to ensure the sympathetic care of a period property and to offer support as well as recognising it is a home, so I believe. I won't be so worried now.
I was impressed with the Tudor cottage rebuild Keith. The photo record is fabulous. Well done!
Zebra
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Yes, this summer. The walls are still damp in places, but I think this due to other problems. I've also addressed the damp issues in a number of other ways, so it's hard to tell exactly how much difference the French drain itself has made, but yes it does look neat!elizabeth said:
Congratulations on the house
We bought a cob cottage last year which suffered from bad damp and learnt so much from speaking to a specialist as there was so much conflicting reports. French drains can be a good idea but equally bad - our cottage has no foundations and installing a French drain could have an adverse effect of the structural properties of the wall.
Cob is meant to be slightly damp and the first port of call is to make sure that the walls can breathe on both sides - modern paints can trap the moisture in and causes it to 'blow'. Any water should be able to escape through the wall as and when.
We used the Lime Centre based in Wiltshire who inspected the whole house and gave a full report and invaluable advice with regards to do's and donts so find a proper cob specialist and get them to inspect it for you.
Good luck and more photos would be good
Andy
We bought a cob cottage last year which suffered from bad damp and learnt so much from speaking to a specialist as there was so much conflicting reports. French drains can be a good idea but equally bad - our cottage has no foundations and installing a French drain could have an adverse effect of the structural properties of the wall.
Cob is meant to be slightly damp and the first port of call is to make sure that the walls can breathe on both sides - modern paints can trap the moisture in and causes it to 'blow'. Any water should be able to escape through the wall as and when.
We used the Lime Centre based in Wiltshire who inspected the whole house and gave a full report and invaluable advice with regards to do's and donts so find a proper cob specialist and get them to inspect it for you.
Good luck and more photos would be good
Andy
Hello
I am one of the Devon Conservation Officers that you are worried about, but don't worry I am not yours!
You are getting advice here that is good and bad. Unfourtunately we have to turn out to cob collapses a couple times a year due to damp. I had one on Christmas day a few years back. As has been pointed out, cob can get too dry as well as too wet.
Can I strongly suggest that you google DEBA - The Devon Earth Building Association. They can give you all sorts of interesting advice about the strange things we do with mud and straw down here!
Come back to me if you have any difficulty finding them.
Cheers
Garnett
I am one of the Devon Conservation Officers that you are worried about, but don't worry I am not yours!
You are getting advice here that is good and bad. Unfourtunately we have to turn out to cob collapses a couple times a year due to damp. I had one on Christmas day a few years back. As has been pointed out, cob can get too dry as well as too wet.
Can I strongly suggest that you google DEBA - The Devon Earth Building Association. They can give you all sorts of interesting advice about the strange things we do with mud and straw down here!
Come back to me if you have any difficulty finding them.
Cheers
Garnett
Hi Garnett - thanks for your post. It's good to know about DEBA and will take your advice and try and contact them if they can help. Will also contact the CO for our area. Am less worried now and thank you for your help and kind offer if we have difficulty.
Kind regards
Elizabeth.
Kind regards
Elizabeth.