Cast Iron Soil Pipe

[MatthewC]

We are re-designing the (very) small bathroom in our house, not to mention re-plastering and re-flooring (as it was in a very damp part of the house). We need to move the toilet from its current position to about midway above the sash window.
This will entail doing some work with the cast iron soil pipe (on the left of the picture, partly hidden by scaffolding), and the outflow will need to be on the right, not the left. Being listed, I should not really agree to the plumber's recommendation of fitting plastic so I am trying to find a way to do this.

One suggestion is to move the middle bit of pipe round, so that the angle pipe flows up to the right instead of the left. Unfortunately the joints at the top and bottom are filled with lead...

Any ideas please? Does anyone know of someone who could work magic with cast iron?

 

[Feltwell]

I don't see why working with a cast iron soil pipe should be much harder than working with cast iron rainwater goods. J & JW Longbottom will sell all the cast iron soil pipe bits you'll ever need - their website is rubbish though, give them a call and ask them to send you a catalogue. They're very helpful.

http://www.longbottomfoundry.co.uk/

http://www.northpole2006.org.uk/jjwlongbottom/

 

[middi]

I agree with feltwell.
There sould be no reason why you could not purchase a new cast iron " T ", cut away close to the existing pipes and insert the new " T " in the appropriate position. You will need ( or hire) a cast iron " chain" cutter for a quick job.
It will be difficult to remove and reposition the old " T " in the new position due to the high risk of pipes cracking.
With some assistance you could use the chain cutter to remove the existing " T " away from the old pipes first, then you could try to " crack away the pipe stumps left in the T collars by tapping sharp blows with a cold chisel inwards within the collars. If you are lucky you may save the old " T ".
I would just buy another " T " .( less hassle)

Middi

 

[Pford75]

If you're listed, then don't you have LBC for this? If not, you really should.

The LBC should specify the position and type of external soil pipe. I'm also wondering if you need bldg regs to move a toilet/soil stack?

 

[middi]

..... forgot to mention, there are one or two companies ( google !!!) that manufacture cast plastic pipes that look exactly the same as cast iron pipes if you want to go down that route.
Reccommended for cast iron replacement on period buildings ( only by the manufacturers though)

Middi

 

[robgil]

Yo9u arnt intending to come out through the brick arch lintel are you?

 

[Pford75]

Replacing cast iron with plastic is certainly not a 'like for like' repair and you would need to at least discuss this with your CO. I'd be surprised if he/she agreed to the use of plastic.

 

[Feltwell]

I think plastic would fade and look cr@p eventually, although you could paint it. I've seen the plastic "cast iron effect" rainwater goods, and they do look a bit naff - the joints especially look poor. Mind you, I've got a great ugly modern plastic soil pipe running down the side of my house, I bet it would look better than that!

Middi, I've never used one of those chain cutters. Do they actually give a clean enough cut? I've always used an angle grinder to cut rainwater downpipes, and I don't see why a 9" cutter couldn't do a soil pipe.

 

[stephenh]

As has been said it is not a good idea to pierce the brick arch over the window.

From this a higher, flatter branch is required – probably a 92 ½ degree rather than the 112 ½ that is there at the moment. From this the current branch is redundant and can therefore be cut – with an angle grinder.

Make one cut a couple of inches above the lowest female fitting to the lower down pipe and others anywhere to enable the branch to be taken out.
Once taken out access is there to the lower pipe.

Take an expanding pipe plug and tightly fit in the lower pipe some 4-5 inches down.

Put in a few inches of water and apply loads of heat to the lead – and there you are …

If you cut the main down pipe you will then have to use a ‘Timesaver’ to rejoin and this never looks as good.

When refitting it is easier to use lead ‘wool’ rather than pouring molten stuff as hot lead work involves an outlay on tools that isn’t really worth your while.

PS – try getting hold of a ‘real’ plumber ? ( plumbus (sp) being the Latin for lead !)

Good luck.

 

[robgil]

Have you considered a macerator? Is this the only WC in the house?

Edit to add - If you are thinking about coming out through that brick arch i doubt they would let you , is it essential to the buildings well being that you move the toilet? If not you may have a hard job convincing a CO that moving a WC is reason enough for the destruction of part of the arch, not to mention the BI raising an eyebrow at such a notion.

 

[Moo]

Have you considered a macerator?

It's certainly worth thinking about.
In our house-before-last we wanted to convert a superfluous bedroom into an 'en-suite' but were put off the idea because the exterior pipe-work would have made the place look even more like the Pompidou Centre. In the end we had a Saniflo installed, that took all the waste from a bath, a basin and the WC. As far as I know (and we're still in touch with our successors fifteen years on) there have been no problems with it.
If you like, I'll ask them how it's fared.

 

[middi]

Middi, I've never used one of those chain cutters. Do they actually give a clean enough cut? I've always used an angle grinder to cut rainwater downpipes, and I don't see why a 9" cutter couldn't do a soil pipe.

They give an extremely ( and quick) clean cut, they were easily available in the mid 70's.
I used to regularly help my father replace and repair 4 and 6 inch cast iron hot water pipes that used to heat his cucumber and tomatoes growing greenhouses.

The are very simple in costruction and work on the same principle as the very stumpy 15mm copper pipe cutters with their two small guiding rollers and the single cutting wheel used in tight spaces.

The chain cutter is , as it implies, a chain with every link carrying a cutting wheel.
This is wrapped around the required pipe and tightened, following few rotations or just backward and forward movements the chain cutter is retightened and the cutting procedure repeated untill a clean "snap" is achieved.
A plumber friend of mine has one. Never actually purchased one myself ( just used them)

Middi

 

[MatthewC]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I've just got back from the LPOC Exhibition where I asked this question of three different exhibitors. The real issue, I realised after posting the original, is that there are no ears on the existing pipe. It seems to be held up by a few pathetic brackets (umbrella stick) and the hole in the soffit; therefore the pipes are resting on each other so it would be impossible to take a piece out! Therefore I need some suitable brackets to fit and take the weight of the upper portion so that I can do a repair, and I have had two possible brackets suggested. My concern then is whether I actually fit the new pieces - hopefully there is some play in them.

Some detailed responses:

a. I am NOT going to make a hole in the brick arch lintel. The current outlet is under the floor and our planned WC will have a higher outlet, so it will be above the lintel.

b. I know that plastic is not a 'like for like' repair which is why I am not agreeing with my plumber's suggestion. Our CO is very picky - see earlier thread about not allowing double glazing in a brand new sash window replacing a 60s metal frame.

c. The Latin for lead is "plumbum" (2nd declension neuter, if I remember my Kennedy)

d. I had thought of a macerator but t'other half wasn't convinced. I didn't know that all the waste could then go down the same pipe.

e. If the brackets work, I shall use the services of my roofer who is qualified in lead work as well as being the person who fitted my downpipes, and shall probably replace the branch (using a flatter angle as suggested) as I expect it will have to be ground off. If it's fitted a bit higher then the pipe would be above the window lintel and so I would not think LBC would be required.

If you cut the main down pipe you will then have to use a ‘Timesaver’ to rejoin and this never looks as good.

What's one of those, please?

Thanks all

Matthew
http://houseintheenchantedforest.blogspot.com/

 

[Penners]

The Latin for lead is "plumbum" (2nd declension neuter, if I remember my Kennedy)

Now that's what I call proper pedantry.

You gladden my heart, Matthew.

 

[Feltwell]

The Latin for lead is "plumbum" (2nd declension neuter, if I remember my Kennedy)

Now that's what I call proper pedantry.

You gladden my heart, Matthew.

For pity's sake Matthew, don't encourage him! :wink:

Macerators are OK, but they are noisy (think of the loo being used in the middle of the night.....), expensive and can go wrong, unlike gravity! In some circumstances they are the only option that is possible, but if you can avoid using one then I would.

I'm sure you can find a way to temporarily support your upper sections of pipe. You can get "eared" spigots for rainwater downpipes that can be fitted to plain sections of pipe, so you may be able to get them for soil pipe. If they are available then Longbottoms is the best bet - they have by far the biggest range of rainwater goods I ever came across, so I suspect they will have the biggest soil pipe range as well.

Great suggestion from Stephen about the pipe plug, water and heat - cast iron is very brittle so any attempts to chip out the old lead or just apply heat locally would be risky.

 

[robgil]

I think a lot of the bad press about macerators is from plumbers who dont like to work on them and people who like to throw nappies down the toilet.
The older ones may have been a bit basic but they have come a long way, one restriction is size, the other is not having one as your only toilet.
Very few plumbers nowadays do lead work, basic flashing work maybe but they dont really bother that much, when i was at college we were taught basic lead work and no more.
Plumbers in the fairly distant past might be more clued up than us whipper snappers so get an old fella and chances are he will know more about lead work.
God i feel young again saying that.

 

[stephenh]

Mathew -

http://www.trademate.co.uk/products/productextra.asp?ProductCode=861620&M=I&Bounceback=/products/DrilldownProducts.asp?mode=1:Level2=7:Level3=AY:SubDesc=Drainage+-+Cast+Iron+%3A+Timesavers

They come in various sizes and are suitable for joining two pieces of plain CI pipe with no female sockets on them.

I also remember drilling 2 x 1/4" holes opposite each other through the 2" spiggot left after the initial cutting of the old pipe.
Thread a bar through and you can then pull out the pipe easily without having to use so much heat.

Good luck..

 

[robgil]

Is that pipe for rainwater as well? Is there much above it? Has this already been said?
Can you not just strip the whole lot down and re-build it?

 

[MatthewC]

The Latin for lead is "plumbum" (2nd declension neuter, if I remember my Kennedy)

Now that's what I call proper pedantry.

You gladden my heart, Matthew.

For pity's sake Matthew, don't encourage him! :wink:

Praise from Penners is praise indeed.

 

[MatthewC]

Is that pipe for rainwater as well? Is there much above it? Has this already been said?
Can you not just strip the whole lot down and re-build it?

No, it's soil only.
There is about 18 feet of (heavy) pipe above. I'd rather not strip it all down to below the branch pipe as I've already done the soffit, roof and flashing!