EV Charger Grade 2 Listed

[masochists-r-us]

We were planning to do the right thing and order an electric vehicle this time.
Then I contacted our Local Authority to ask if LBC was necessary and the nightmare began.
Apparently, Planning Consent at £270 is required even though this is not required for owners of modern houses. This on top of the car itself £££ and the charger installation costs.
There is no policy regarding EV chargers so no assurance of a successful application can be implied or given. The view being this kind of thing might set a dangerous precedent and people might start building unauthorised extensions !!
Instead of the 8 weeks (pre Covid) to determine an application, it now takes 3.5 - 4 months.
Add this to the vehicle lead time order to delivery, I could order in March / April (assuming we’re successful) and get the vehicle in October next year !
As a newbie to this, it is clear that charging at fuel stations is not economically viable so I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that we will order another diesel car this time and hope that there will be more sensible policies next time we renew, but it doesn’t sit well with me, since I thought we were in a climate emergency.
Please can others share their experiences with their local authorities on this subject and any suggestions as to how to cut through this apparent bureaucracy would be most appreciated.

 

[a twig]

You will need listed building consent, and planning permission as well if you install it within the curtilage of a listed property.

So you are pretty much stuck, unless you can find a way to install a freestanding charging point outside the curtilage of the property but that also doesn’t impact any of the other permitted development restrictions:

• Exceed 2.3 metres in height from the level of the surface used for the parking of vehicles. This limit is 1.6 metres where in the curtilage of a dwellinghouse or block of flats
• Be within two metres of a highway
• Be within a site designated as a scheduled monument

 

[noj]

Surely just putting in a short fence post with it attached to a non-street viewable side wouldn't require permission?

 

[Toby Newell]

We were planning to do the right thing and order an electric vehicle this time.
Then I contacted our Local Authority to ask if LBC was necessary and the nightmare began.
Apparently, Planning Consent at £270 is required even though this is not required for owners of modern houses. This on top of the car itself £££ and the charger installation costs.
There is no policy regarding EV chargers so no assurance of a successful application can be implied or given. The view being this kind of thing might set a dangerous precedent and people might start building unauthorised extensions !!
Instead of the 8 weeks (pre Covid) to determine an application, it now takes 3.5 - 4 months.
Add this to the vehicle lead time order to delivery, I could order in March / April (assuming we’re successful) and get the vehicle in October next year !
As a newbie to this, it is clear that charging at fuel stations is not economically viable so I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that we will order another diesel car this time and hope that there will be more sensible policies next time we renew, but it doesn’t sit well with me, since I thought we were in a climate emergency.
Please can others share their experiences with their local authorities on this subject and any suggestions as to how to cut through this apparent bureaucracy would be most appreciated.

Utterly agree. They should be mandatory if we are going to meet the empty 'keep on consuming, we got this' pledges. Look how long it took them to allow handicapped and disabled people access and they still block quality of life and health and safety issues like extractor fans.

 

[jdsnape]

Surely just putting in a short fence post with it attached to a non-street viewable side wouldn't require permission?

Unfortunately, it would on a listed property. On a 'normal' building, the installation of a EV charger comes under permitted development rights, and obviously they don't exist on a listed house. Class D/E here - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/2

Now, as to why it needs to come under permitted development I don't understand. AFAIK you don't need planning permission for an outside 13A socket for example...

 

[ChrisDHFH]

Please don't buy a new oil burning vehicle. An outside 13A socket will charge an EV at around 10MPH which may be enough for you. e.g. an overnight charge will give you ~100miles driving for the day. For your question, the initial outlay/hassle will be repaid with a better all round vehicle than can be provided by 20th century technology. You really won't look back.

 

[Sam W]

I share your frustration on this. We would like to add an EV charger to our grade 2 listed building and have run into exactly the same issue. Reading between the lines, I think the powers that be wanted to protect listed buildings from inappropriate installations of chargers, but didn't want to let people put in the applications for free via the normal listed building route. Legislation was written in a way that means they can charge, but it's very hard to tell what will/won't be acceptable to the planners. All seems very shortsighted and my brief period of digging through the paperwork didn't find any ways around it.
From a practical point of view, I'm waiting for an electrician to come and tell us where they would put the charger, I'll then roll the dice with the planning application.

 

[noj]

Reading the legal stuff it seems it was aimed at the big commercial things with lights, advertising etc but is sufficiently vague as to potentially encompass everything.

It could be interpreted that a 13A power socket attached to a short fence post next to your drive would be fine to run your jet washer but would be in breach of regulations if your car was plugged into it!

 

[Toby Newell]

Can I get a lol? I mean, currently the United Nations conference on climate change, COP28, the conference set up to tackle the greatest existential threat hominids have faced since the last ice age, is currently being hosted by the world's 8th largest oil producer, headed by a man who runs Adnoc, that producers' state oil company, one of the world's largest, and who just committed his country to massively increasing fossil fuel production whilst adding, as president of the conference, that there is no science behind fossil fuel reduction and to do so would send man back into caves.

The fact that some recalcitrant, backward thinking types have a sniffy attitude towards something that in a very small, yet statistically meaningful way would help mitigate the biggest threat to life on planet earth is, in comparison, several orders of magnitude less ridiculous, but still, fecking ridiculous.

I have been delayed by Stop Oil on the motorway and I am not sure blocking traffic and ambulances and vandalising stuff is the right way to go about things but it is hard to argue with their morals or sentiment. They are doing the Team America emergency signal, whilst we are all pontificating about aesthetics as the scientists point to the nutty wooly jumper wearing brigade and go, 'you see those smelly vegans over there, superglued to the road, yeah, actually they're totally right'.

Honestly, the fact we still exist means I am 100% confident no extra terrestrials have ever visited earth, if they did, they would of looked out of their spaceship window, looked at each other in silence looked back out the spaceship window and in unison uttered a slow, soft 'wow'.

And death rayed the planet before these illogical, egotistical, duplicitous, nutjobs could ever achieve interstellar flight and ruin more stuff someplace else...

 

[masochists-r-us]

Thanks all for your responses. Sadly, we have decided not to order the electric car after all. It’s just too much hassle. We’ve ordered another diesel car this time and hopefully LAs will have seen sense when we renew again in 3 years or so.
Disappointed and disillusioned.

 

[TudorCottage]

I run an EV. I’m lucky enough to have an outbuilding that has power and is outside the curtilage of the listing.

I understand listed building consent is required to put a charger on a listed building. If you were to put a charger on your listed building without consent, would the LBC Police come down on you like a ton of bricks and sentence you to 30 years hard labour or could you plead ignorance and would they just make you remove it?

Considering we are not supposed to be able to buy fossil fuel vehicles in the not too distant future. Surely the Authorities have got to embrace the future, listed building or not.

Or do they expect us to walk or get the bus

 

[Toby Newell]

Dude. They let the president of a state oil company from the world's 8th largest oil producer host the world meeting meant to combat climate change.

Where did you get this silly idea they want to save the planet?

They want to save big business, so us sheep and worker bees keep on buzzing and stop worrying about the polar bears, or drowning...

 

[Toby Newell]

You will be able to buy ICE vehicles well into the 2040's.

We would of had to start building grid infrastructure in 2000 to support no ICE by 2030, that is a joke. Actually we are down on grid capacity, not up.

It's a ruse to keep the sheep placated and in denial.

Like washing out your yoghurt pots, 50% of which go to landfill or are incinerated, 50% of which get shipped to developing countries to get dumped into big piles and burnt or recycled in damaging ways polluting water and creating misery for low income developing working people.

Recycling your plastic is incredibly damaging to the environment and for people as a whole but people do it because they don't care, it makes them be able to use their cognitive dissonance to make them feel better about their 3 car family and three flights a year lifestyle. Just put another log onto the stove, ahhh that's better, I've washed out the yoghurt pot...

 

[TudorCottage]

I’m old and cynical enough to understand that it’s all hypocritical nonsense. But on a selfish basis I’m on an EV tariff that’s reduced my fuel bill by approximately 80%, I’m fully aware that once the balance on the scales tips the Powers that be will hit the lecky car owners with punitive taxes just like they always have.

I was just wondering how seriously the LBC Police would treat the ‘offense’

 

[Toby Newell]

Well, look how long it took them to let disabled people like my mother and brother use a wheelchair ramp? They literally acted against the disabled for decades lol so as not to offend someone's aesthetic sensibility, so who knows?

They will reach a tipping point at some juncture and then they will be allowed, I expect sometime after Elon Musk produces his £25k ev in 5 years or so.

The ULEZ is a TFL covid tax.

And tbh HMRC will have to levy heavy taxes on EV's or instigate massive pay per mile road pricing to make up for the loss in fuel duty. Probably will be PPM.

A lot of ppl don't know about the 1984 aspect of Euro 7.

Any car produced, today, already has a built in alcohol breathalyser, by law that will have an ignition lock out. It just doesn't have to be activated yet. Also all cars produced, right now, have to have automatic speed limiters and speed warnings that will beep or vibrate when you exceed the limit. Later in they will restrict your speed or slow you down and take control of the vehicle, they have an override feature of course.

This is all law. Toyota cancelled the new generation GT86 sports coupe after only 2 years of production because the windscreen was too low to fit the speed monitoring sensors and cameras and it would of been too expensive to redesign it again.

Within 10 years you will not be able to speed or drive over the alcohol limit as Euro 7 is enabled. This is when they will bring in PPM road tax. They can vary it in different areas.

Google maps will have a feature that let's you work out the cost of your journey.

You won't just be monitored from outside with camera, but inside, with cameras. All cars have to come with in vehicle cameras to monitor driver behaviour.

It should improve safety but still, it sounds like science fiction but it is reality, right now and will be enacted in a few short years. Interesting times.

 

[a twig]

Conflating a lot of things here - Euro 7 is just about engine emissions, the other stuff about alcohol, speeds etc is separate safety legislation that has been brought in over the last few years.

ULEZ is about air quality and preventing the 1000s of people in urban areas who die prematurely due to poor air quality triggering asthma attacks etc and pre-dates COVID, National Highways (previously Highways Agency and Highways England) have been looking at improving air quality since the early noughties when it first became apparent that NO2 was a health problem.

Road pricing has also existed for years in places like Singapore and arguably is far fairer than the annual VED.

Not disagreeing with your general point, more just a point of order about the mechanisms

 

[Toby Newell]

Conflating a lot of things here - Euro 7 is just about engine emissions, the other stuff about alcohol, speeds etc is separate safety legislation that has been brought in over the last few years.

ULEZ is about air quality and preventing the 1000s of people in urban areas who die prematurely due to poor air quality triggering asthma attacks etc and pre-dates COVID, National Highways (previously Highways Agency and Highways England) have been looking at improving air quality since the early noughties when it first became apparent that NO2 was a health problem.

Road pricing has also existed for years in places like Singapore and arguably is far fairer than the annual VED.

Not disagreeing with your general point, more just a point of order about the mechanisms

My point was to conflate, that it is all arbitary and political, not logical. Listed planning forbade disabled access which was cruel, forbidding ev chargers when they help ( in a small way) against an existential threat to humanity is arguably cruel too and stupid. We have some of the oldest housing stock in the world forbidding chargers on a significant percentage of UK homes is at odds with stated policy for a move to net zero.

I disagree 100% about ULEZ. Most modern diesels do not produce significantly less NOx than euro 5 under real world testing. The reduction is via reduction of PM2.5. Whilst charging ULEZ may reduce this slightly, wood burning stoves account for 200 to 300% more PM2.5 emissions. If you wanted to tackle health issues due to polution you would ban all wood stoves as inefficient, ancient and pointless, unhealthy technology, but the rich and middle classes love them. You only get a small reduction in PM2.5 and NOX via ULEZ and the use of vehicles is essential for many working people, I would love to carry 800kg of tools and materials in my rucksack on my bicycle. Yet wood stoves are 100% redundant, as everyone in the UK can get gas, electric or oil burning heaters all of which are less polluting and more efficient. Again, it is putting aesthetic considerations above and beyond those of public health.

The expansion of ULEZ rushed through is a simple tax to pay for the money TFL lost during covid and for which those in charge could not claw back from central government.

If the purpose of ULEZ expansion was to reduce mortality and morbidity the actuaries would simply ban all wood burning stoves and get a 1000% better result, but they don't, because the rich can buy both a stove and a new car and there would be outrage if their lovely, inefficient and highly unhealthy and polluting stoves were banned. (I actually love stoves and think they do offer a material, measurable increase in happiness and thus reduction in morbidity, but this is outweighed by orders of magintude by the harm they do)

Road pricing can be fairer as can constanty variable electrical tarrifs, which are coming in.

My point was all these decisions are not taken on best scientific evidence for maximum efficacy, but to provide a veneer of effort to placate people whilst not alienating voters.

I agree, some ev chargers, like wheelchair lifts or ramps can detract from the perceived beauty of a building and largely banning these did and does convey some very minute material benefit to an observer some of whom could otherwise be briefly slightly unhappy upon seeing them.

My point is, this incredibly small benefit is surely outweighed by the existential threat to continued life on the planet, of which ev's and their chargers are attempting to address albeit in a small, yet measurable way.

So yes, I meant to conflate. Euro 7 intrusively removes the freedom to operate your property in a manner that you see fit, listed planning laws prevent you (heavily deter you from using effectively) from purchasing an environmentally responsible product, yet all the while humanity is facing catastrophy within a few hundred years or less and you can all enjoy your lovely wood stoves which cause more harmful emissions than vehicles and clean architectural exteriors whilst our great great grand children metaphorically drown. It is an absurd position to take ( not yours, the people with power )

Washing yoghurt pots, wasting heated water and detergent to clean them, taking them away via truck, dumping or burning 50% of them along with other unwashed rubbish and shipping the other 50% half way round the world is not done to save the planet, it is incredibly carbon intensive for almost zero benefit. It is simply for the cognitively dissonant peace of mind of the masses lest they actually do the only thing (apart from reduce the birth rate) that has any hope of saving the planet, ie consume less.

You may have noticed, compared to 25 years ago we all have 5000% more subscription services, including cars that now charge you to turn on seat warmers or increase power. Which wastefully they already have built in. Until such time as capitalists can make enough stuff subscription based they need to keep the sheep happy and purchasing the latest manufactured hardware doo dad rather than sit down and realise they dont really need such large houses, that many vehicles and to fly so much.

Which is why the premier meeting of the World's executive managers on behalf of mankind convened to address the biggest ever existential threat to all life on the planet was chaired by the president of a fossil fuel company in the world's 8th largest oil producing nation, who, upon conclusion, and against his initial resistance to agree to phase out his own product, nevertheless stated that his countries product was 'low carbon' despite being approximately 85% by weight, carbon.

My point, is it is all arbitary and not done for the commongood, but to placate the masses and keep them consuming for political and economic expediency for those in positions of power. Carry on.

 

[masochists-r-us]

Toby Newell, you’re an old cynic. Thanks for the laughs which would be funny if it weren’t so worrying. I’m personally looking forward to a time when we can get rid of the majority of our own personal cars in favour of driverless shared vehicles and I don’t think it can be that far away from a technological perspective. The question is, are we preparing for it?
We’ve actually had a change of heart regarding the new car. A recent trip to hospital in Oxford where they have introduced their own version of ULEZ or LEZ and where I had to pay £4 for the privilege of driving at a max of 20mph pretty much everywhere provided food for thought. Whilst the Govt say we can carry on buying diesels, many local authorities seem to be looking at similar schemes to boost their coffers and ‘improve air quality’. I can foresee buying a new diesel and then being unable to use it due to the cost of ULEZ or LEZ charges. Incoherent.
Mind you, the same criticism can be applied to housing policy. Living longer and inward migration means we need to build around 600k houses each year and we’re only building a quarter of that. Furthermore, instead of building well planned, high rise, high density, low cost homes with shared facilities and common spaces in towns and cities like they do in the Far East, we’re sacrificing green space, still building expensive, individual boxes with their own driveways and gardens - insanity IMO.

 

[DampedOut]

By 2100 the world population will be falling fast, so housing stock will probably not be such a big concern. I think you're right that big, high-density housing with great common spaces are necessary now and in the near future. At a certain point, buildings that already exist that are eyesores will probably fall into total disrepair and turn into blight, like what's happening in Detroit, even to the beautiful housing stock.

 

[Flyfisher]

Hmm. I hesitate to post this for fear of a midnight knock on the door but I bought an EV last year and it didn't occur to me to seek permission to install a charging point - and we're G2*!

I suppose much depends on the location and visibility but, as I understand it, listing is not intended to 'stop time' as far as our historic buildings are concerned. I'm guessing we all have inside lavatories these days, something that was a new innovation for my grandparents and so many of their generation, even as late as post-WW2. We all have electricity, which has arguably 'ruined' the authentic candle-light of period living and I'd bet that all of our kitchens bear little or no resemblance to originality.

The fact is that no one wants to live in a genuinely authentic period property and if such a thing were enforced by the listing process then such properties would be unsaleable and empty - and nothing decays as fast as an empty property!

In the process of restoring/renovating my house over the past 15 years, I've successfully applied for 4 LBCs, which I've posted about before. However, I've also done some works without LBC because they are invisible (eg complete new drainage systems), an improvement of what previously existed (eg replacing an uneven, spalled brick patio with new clay pavers) or non-destructive and easily reversible items such as connecting to the mains gas supply and installing radiators and multi-fuel stoves. I can't remember the source but there is a saying about it being easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

There are some things that are so obviously 'right' that they shouldn't need permisssion. The problem, of course, is subjectivity. Historic England's own advice is that "You will need listed building consent for all work to a listed building that involves alterations, extensions or demolition and will affect its character as a building of special architectural or historic interest." In the context of installing an EV charger, my interpretation of this advice is that there is no "alteration, extension or demolition" involved and that a barely visible EV charger (in my case, on the side of an existing brick buttress) does not affect the "character as a building of special architectural or historic interest". So, I didn't apply for LBC because I really don't believe that any sensible CO would pursue a complaint and even if they did and even if my appeal was not successful then the EV charger could be removed without causing any damage. I can sleep soundly at night with that decision and so far, so good.