Fire surround compo detail

[overlander matt]

We have an Adam-style wooden fire surround that I will be working on over the coming weeks. It has three decorative elements which I am advised is compo which need some attention that I will need some help with. Do these details have a particular name? The central one has more or less been destroyed and I wonder whether anyone has come across a supplier that might offer a similar replacement? The side details are more or less ok with the exception of a missing petal/leaf on one side.

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated. It's been slow going so far with the fine point scrapers and blades to clean off the old paint and caulk. I'm interested to know what filler/caulk to use on the fine gaps between joins in the mouldings and the rounded, dowel-type pieces.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Cubist]

Hi Matt,

I suspect you may not find an exact match in design and scale with any mouldings you may find on the market and most of these will be either wood or plastic. With that in mind I would suggest you check out Ruth Tappins website and look at some of her work and training videos. She's a highly respected gilder based in Leek and has done some fantastic restoration work of this kind. Sadly I have never had a need for these services myself but have seen a lot of her work and the methods she employs to replicate extant/damaged/missing decorative mouldings using traditional materials

Hope this helps,
Cubist

 

[Toby Newell]

That looks like a mission! Any gunnable caulk that is easily water wipeable, you may have to experiment.

Shame the middle decoration has been melted by the stripper. At least DCM wasn't used, that totally melts them. Just choose one that looks similar. Looks like some sort of swag.

I would call the side ones rosettes, but I am a pleb, I think Patera is the classical term.

You should be able to find similar, still a few people making reproductions. Cheapo ones are thermosetting plastic but still can find traditional thermoplastic type compounds.

These guys use fine sawdust instead of chalk (which was also a thing back in the day) not sure what their resin is, but the good ones are softenable for better adhesion. Just check what adhesive they need as they can be difficult to stick.

Decorative Carved Wood Mouldings & Corbels - DecWOOD

Composite decorative carved wood mouldings from DecWOOD are uniquely crafted containing a carefully selected blend of wood flours and resins.

decwood.co.uk

 

[Toby Newell]

you don't want the cnc carved wood ones, they look terrible, go for the resin ones.

That was a quick search, they do bespoke too, although they would require a clean molding to copy! Pretty sure you can even find ones using animal glue, its not hard to make them.

All I remember is my Grandfather used to use gold size and egg, which I always thought of as kind of magical.

 

[overlander matt]

Hi Matt,

I suspect you may not find an exact match in design and scale with any mouldings you may find on the market and most of these will be either wood or plastic. With that in mind I would suggest you check out Ruth Tappins website and look at some of her work and training videos. She's a highly respected gilder based in Leek and has done some fantastic restoration work of this kind. Sadly I have never had a need for these services myself but have seen a lot of her work and the methods she employs to replicate extant/damaged/missing decorative mouldings using traditional materials

Hope this helps,
Cubist

Hi Cubist,

Many thanks for the suggestion. Leek is not that far from here too. It's certainly interesting work that Ruth does. I've also spotted a company in Scotland (Thistle and Rose) that specialises in fire surround restoration. Whether they will supply a suitable replacement compo detail on a DIY repair is worth an ask!

Thanks again.

Matt

 

[overlander matt]

That looks like a mission! Any gunnable caulk that is easily water wipeable, you may have to experiment.

Shame the middle decoration has been melted by the stripper. At least DCM wasn't used, that totally melts them. Just choose one that looks similar. Looks like some sort of swag.

I would call the side ones rosettes, but I am a pleb, I think Patera is the classical term.

You should be able to find similar, still a few people making reproductions. Cheapo ones are thermosetting plastic but still can find traditional thermoplastic type compounds.

These guys use fine sawdust instead of chalk (which was also a thing back in the day) not sure what their resin is, but the good ones are softenable for better adhesion. Just check what adhesive they need as they can be difficult to stick.

Decorative Carved Wood Mouldings & Corbels - DecWOOD

Composite decorative carved wood mouldings from DecWOOD are uniquely crafted containing a carefully selected blend of wood flours and resins.

decwood.co.uk

Thanks Toby,

It's a part time mission at the moment - an hour here and there with a blade and point scraper to get the old paint off. Hopefully get it back in and ready for a fire by winter.

I don't know exactly what has happened to the central decoration - I suspect it has suffered in the stripping process but it's odd that the pateras did not. This was done quite a while ago so I don't recall exactly how it looked.

Thanks for sending the link to the mouldings company. That looks to be the sort of thing I am looking for - I just need to find a good match. I found a company specialising in Adam-style fireplace restoration so I will contact them to see if they can help.

Thanks for the caulk tip too. I'm a few evenings off painting and caulking but it's getting there...

Matt

 

[Toby Newell]

Did u strip? Looks caustic dipped. I'm not familiar with 'compo' reaction with the hydroxides. Most compo is gesso based, so I would presume any caustic would attack it. I only know they melt badly with DCM. Maybe the centre swags are proper gesso and the outer ornaments are wood or plastic. Not used that company but they look good, whatever resin they use is heat softenable so similar to gesso. Gesso is basically chalk and pearl (rabbit skin / animal) glue, same suff you use as a ground in gilding, just a little stiffer. Everyone had their own recipes, often adding a little gold size, which is basically a linseed oil / resin varnish. Send them photos and see if they have something similar.

 

[overlander matt]

I did get it stripped - the guy I use is reasonably careful and knew what we were dealing with but I don't doubt that this has suffered. It was not in good shape originally so I don't want to apportion blame and ultimately it was my call to give it a go. We did wonder whether there had been an earlier attempt with a chlorinated stripper. Strangely the side decorations are ok but the centre clearly is not. Whatever the side details are made of is hard and not wood. There's some very fine detail that is not affected at all by the point scraper.

I got knocked back by the specialists in Scotland - it's a full restoration with them or nothing so the search starts in earnest for parts only. I'll send out some photos as you suggest Toby.

Cheers!

 

[Toby Newell]

Its not an especially special piece, excuse my impudence. Not that old, possibly late Victorian. Normally compo is affected by all strippers. If the guy had a cold dip alkaline tank that's better than a hot dip. The central swags / ribbons motif may have been added later. It looks odd to me and out of proportion. It goes right to the edge of the face, one would of expected a larger gap. Who knows. Compo is softened by heat, water, caustic solutions and solvent strippers. The fact the middle has reacted differently lends credence that either the middle or sides have been added or replaced.

I'm just a pleb, but to me the swags are normally for a longer area. I would choose a nice scroll or ribbon which is slightly smaller but fill more of the space for the middle and keep the pateras.

 

[Toby Newell]

 

[overlander matt]

I fully agree it's not a terribly good example. Everything in the house has a Georgian origin but perhaps was overhauled in Victorian times when the house was either finished or remodelled. Unfortunately DecWood don't have anything similar but do have a few alternatives.

I've got a few weeks before I will get the fireplace fitted again so time to investigate further and choose something appropriate.

 

[Toby Newell]

Well, it's old and you are giving it a lot of love, so that's nice.

 

[malcolm]

Looks amazing to me. My place was remodelled in 1920 then 1970 and the only quality stuff remaining from earlier are the walls. I have no experience of fine woodwork but look forward to pictures of the restoration.

 

[mims&pip]

I like the couple of examples Toby posted above and think something like that would definitely suit the fire surround in question

Like Malcolm, our current abode (400+ years old) has little except the walls that originate from when it was built - mainly because as a mill, the whole building wasn't intended for habitation. It was (apparently) converted to a dwelling in the Victorian era and there are two small - and not particularly attractive - cast iron bedroom fireplaces plus a few windows and a porch dating from that time. It actually had the feel of a much newer, if rather shabby, property when we bought it five years ago. I think because for many years (till 1999) it was owned by the local mansion and lived in by their tenants who had no vested interest in original features or the fabric of the building. Then - when sold - it was owned by a series of unsympathetic idiots! Hopefully it's a bit more characterful these days

Look forward to seeing the restored fire surround Matt!

Mims x

 

[LadyArowana]

Like Malcolm, our current abode (400+ years old) has little except the walls that originate from when it was built -

Even when things look right they might not be original to the house. I thought all our fireplaces were, but when we stripped the walls it was obvious the dining room and first floor ones were replacements. There were noticeable shadows on the wall where slightly different shaped ones would have been, along with repairs to the plaster when servants bells were removed from either side. We are fortunate to have 2 little hob grates that seem to be from when the house was built, and if I’m truly honest I’m not too sad that bedroom fireplaces were long gone as it made furniture decisions much easier!