Found a great renovation property but it has (currently minor) subsidence and not sure how to proceed

[yellowchair]

Hi All
I’m in the process of considering a property purchase, but I’ve hit a bit of a roadblock with subsidence issues. I’d really appreciate any advice or opinions on navigating this, especially around securing a mortgage and insurance and whether I have allowed enough budget to sort out the subsidence on top of the renovation.

The Property:​

• Three storey Early-Victorian Mid-Terrace in London (typical clay-based soil).
• It has a council-owned Rowan tree (~10m tall) on the public pavement outside the front garden.
• Cracks in the structure: These run through the front door lintel and up to the first-floor window, which no longer shuts properly.
• Structural engineer visit: They suspect subsidence due to the tree and recommend cutting it back, (but they can’t make any guarantees). They also think underpinning isn’t necessary (but a soil inspection would confirm this).

What I’ve Been Told:​

• The subsidence seems to be localised to one corner of the house.
• The lintel might need replacing, and there’s evidence that the neighbour has patched some cracks on their window sills.
• The house needs significant work: It was an old HMO and requires a full renovation (rebuilding a shoddy side return/back extension, removing unsuppported stud walls on 1st/2nd floor that's causing significant sagging, repointing, new floors, replastering, redoing bathrooms/kitchen, rewire/plumbing, rebuilding a dilapidated outbuilding, etc.). Ideally I'd like to throw in a 1st floor extension various other non essentials (ufh+insulation, heat pump, solar panels etc to improve EPC)

Buying:​

• I’ve negotiated an 8% discount on the listing price which is now ~25% lower (~£300K) than similar renovated and extended properties. I expect that London renovations costs will use up this budget and at the time I was reassured by the estate agent that there were no significant structural issues that would make it unmortgageable or uninsurable.

However, I’m now unsure whether I can secure a mortgage and insurance due to the potential subsidence issue. I’ve reached out to the estate agent about the seller’s insurance details but have not heard back yet.

My Questions:​

1. Mortgage & Insurance: Has anyone here bought a property with subsidence issues and managed to secure a mortgage and insurance? If so, how did you navigate the process? Any tips or advice?
2. Is This a Risk Worth Taking?: Based on the photos and the structural engineer’s feedback, do you think it’s possible to resolve the subsidence issue (e.g., by trimming the tree via council) and eventually sell the property in the future? Or would you advise walking away from this one?

I’d love to hear any experiences, insights, or advice on this. I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed with the potential risks, but I also see a lot of potential in the property for a family home if the issues can be addressed.
Looking forward to your thoughts, thank you!

 

[lizziecupcakes]

I personally wouldn’t purchase this. Seems like there could potentially be more issues. A structural surveryor won’t tell you anymore than you know already. You’ll need a structural engineer to really size up the issue but honesty, this would be a rabbit hole. They are also costly in London.

I think you could ask the seller to tell their insurer to get it fixed, they are obligated to tell their insurer anyway. I also wouldn’t listen to anything an estate agent says - they just want their commission. As mentioned, I personally would walk away unless the seller was getting it evaluated with their insurer and preferably fixed. I wouldn’t exchange contracts until is was signed off.

I would only take on a house with a history of subsidence if it was 20 years ago and was fixed, and they had no other issues since. Even then, I’d probably walk away.

I think some people might comment that a house with subsidence that’s been fixed is stronger than other houses on the street, but since the one you’re looking at it isn’t even evaluated to see the true extent, cause and any risk of danger, I would just walk away. I don’t have the budget for this but if you do, and love it, then you could reconsider. I would definitely at the very least get a structural engineer but I wouldn’t be happy to pay for it; it’s something I would negotiate with the seller.

Good luck.

 

[lizziecupcakes]

Sorry, I just read that you got a structural engineer’s opinion. It that a written opinion, or just a quick chat with you and no evidence of it? I wouldn’t accept the latter, only a report. Like I said, rabbit hole….

 

[a twig]

Depends on how risk averse you are really!

The advantage of it being a terrace is the houses either side will help hold it up!

Underpinning isn’t as terrifying as it’s reputation - if the SE was thinking about roots being the cause then you could excavate in front of your house to reveal them and cut them all back (as long as it’s within your property boundary it is fair game). Easily DIYable with a shovel and a pruning saw.

Soil tests are <£200, you can dig the test pit yourself, chuck a lump of the soil in a bag and post it to the lab.

Re: mortgages - I didn’t end up needing to do it in the end but had discussed a conditional mortgage with a lender previously where it was granted on condition that certain works were done within X months of ownership.

Alternatively just forget to mention it to your mortgage provider or your insurer, buy the place and just crack on and fix it all quick before it becomes a problem.

 

[yellowchair]

Sorry, I just read that you got a structural engineer’s opinion. It that a written opinion, or just a quick chat with you and no evidence of it? I wouldn’t accept the latter, only a report. Like I said, rabbit hole….

The structural opinion was from me walking with him during an hour whilst he inspected the property in person. I have yet to instruct him for the ~3 hours of writing up the final report. I was putting this expense off until I could find out whether we can mortgage the property, though I fear it's a case of we won't know til we try!

Thanks for your thoughts. I am considering pushing for the seller to claim on their insurer. The only problem is that they are solicitors acting on behalf of the estate of someone who has passed away. So not really sure whether they are by the book/evidence or can't be bothered with hassle type of sellers.

For better or worse we are getting more attached to the property by the day. And we do have a budget for renovations that we can siphon a part into structural essentials if all else fails.

Depends on how risk averse you are really!

The advantage of it being a terrace is the houses either side will help hold it up!

Underpinning isn’t as terrifying as it’s reputation - if the SE was thinking about roots being the cause then you could excavate in front of your house to reveal them and cut them all back (as long as it’s within your property boundary it is fair game). Easily DIYable with a shovel and a pruning saw.

Soil tests are <£200, you can dig the test pit yourself, chuck a lump of the soil in a bag and post it to the lab.

Re: mortgages - I didn’t end up needing to do it in the end but had discussed a conditional mortgage with a lender previously where it was granted on condition that certain works were done within X months of ownership.

Alternatively just forget to mention it to your mortgage provider or your insurer, buy the place and just crack on and fix it all quick before it becomes a problem.

I'm very good at overworrying but I recognise that I do! As such I am trying to take a step back and consider what risk something *really* is rather than what I'm worrying it will be . Hence asking people their thoughts on here who can hopefully be somewhat more objective! (As we really would like to make this work out)

It's interesting (maybe it's expected but odd to me) that there doesn't seem to be any ground disturbance from roots between the tree's immediate base and the front door, however the garden is currently thoroughly paved. Should we manage to buy the place, tearing some of that up to let the soil breathe more and possibly explore for some roots definitely sounds worthwhile!

We're attempting to get the seller's insurance to transfer cover straight to us so there is no break in cover. I don't really want to tick an insurer's "there are no signs of subsidence" when there are cracks on the wall (even if they may not even be subsidence) but obviously if we do tick it they all say no even when it could not be! So hopefully transferring will be possible and avoid that. If we can, then going ahead with the purchase and getting it resolved directly may be the easiest way.

 

[paulc]

It's interesting (maybe it's expected but odd to me) that there doesn't seem to be any ground disturbance from roots between the tree's immediate base and the front door, however the garden is currently thoroughly paved.

Being on London clay, and the fact that much of the Victorian buildings (and much later) had very shallow foundations, I'd be more inclined to suspect ground heave & shrinkage rather than subsidence. But I'm no expert in such matters, so feel free to ignore my opinion.
That said, the big step in the stonework above the door is of concern, so certainly warrants a closer inspection.

If you take a wander around the neighbourhood, do any of the other properties show similar cracks ?
If so, that would point more towards general ground movement. Just a thought - Is this property directly above the new Elizabeth line ?

 

[yellowchair]

Being on London clay, and the fact that much of the Victorian buildings (and much later) had very shallow foundations, I'd be more inclined to suspect ground heave & shrinkage rather than subsidence. But I'm no expert in such matters, so feel free to ignore my opinion.
That said, the big step in the stonework above the door is of concern, so certainly warrants a closer inspection.

If you take a wander around the neighbourhood, do any of the other properties show similar cracks ?
If so, that would point more towards general ground movement. Just a thought - Is this property directly above the new Elizabeth line ?

I've spoken to a local tree specialist today who had the same thoughts about normal ground movement from London soil (the property is in a particular bad area, though not under the Elizabeth Line, the property is in north London). They do not think the tree is a problem given the size, type and age of the tree in relation to its distance from the property.

In regards to other properties nearby, there are certainly a few properties with cracks. Some with cracks through the door lintel - not as severe but similar, some properties with cracks in the middle and some with cracks at the corner (though I would say most not as bad as this property). No real pattern with or without tree. This, along with the comments from the tree specialist, gives me some hesitancy on whether the tree is really involved or not!

I am also aware that the cracks seem to be on the section with render (lower floor) and the areas with painted brickwork does not show cracks.

Currently I am exploring opinions from other trades specialists like architects and builders. Some opinions are saying that it it could be decorative cracking, another saying the lintels are old and needing replacing and another opinion suggests that perhaps when the windows were put in, they were done badly and thus there is stress from that. I wouldn't be surprised by the latter as other works by the previous owner were done at a very poor standard. I am aiming to replace all the windows as part of the renovations.

I feel like maybe I jumped the gun in getting an SE to take a look and opened a can of worms unnecessarily!

 

[a twig]

The stone heads / lintels can be repaired, rather than having to be replaced - there’s a thread on here somewhere someone DIY’d it