Is this landing safe?

[Coles]

I thought I made a post about this before but couldn't find it, so apologies if this is duplicated.

The builders removed a stud wall which sat under part of the landing, now it looks like it's floating, unsupported from underneath.

As it was once turned into flats I am now worried what was added and what was always there.

It was suggested it's self supporting, but again I don't know if anything was removed.

There is a 'modern' plasterboard ceiling under it, no sign of lath and plaster like on the rest of the ceiling.

But there is original skirting on it.

The spindles are different to the rest of the stairs.

My friend came to visit and the first thing they mentioned was "How is that just floating there?:

Is this normal for an early 1900's house?

 

[a twig]

If the joists are beefy enough and effectively cantilevered off that wall then might be ok.

Personally I'd consider at least having a post in the corner supporting where the stair makes its left turn, and and a minimum putting some hefty noggins in if not a bearer.

If it bounces when you are walking on the landing then it definitely needs some additional support

If you want it looked at properly the challenge is finding a proper structural engineer that won’t immediately insist on steels going in.

 

[Stevers]

Possibly a little unusual, but not so much in a quality building with a bit of architectural ambition. If those joists are continuous over the supporting wall, that wouldn't be an unreasonable cantilever in terms of slenderness. Does it creak and move when you walk on it?

I wouldn't expect it, but is there any sign of a removed column in the floor or tucked up that corner?

 

[Coles]

Possibly a little unusual, but not so much in a quality building with a bit of architectural ambition. If those joists are continuous over the supporting wall, that wouldn't be an unreasonable cantilever in terms of slenderness. Does it creak and move when you walk on it?

I wouldn't expect it, but is there any sign of a removed column in the floor or tucked up that corner?

Thanks for the response. No there is no sign of a pillar, if there was a pillar it would sit in front of what used to the door under the stair (I can see the brackets where the door once was).

It feels sturdy enough, I'm just worried it was added later, although I can't think why they would, apart from the fact it has a radiator on it. I can't believe they would put this in just to accommodate a radiator.

I could look at a neighbours but all the houses are different inside. Apparently when they were built, the company ran out of money so there were big gaps between each one being finished, so my neighbours have a staircase in a slightly different position.

The stud wall ended there so had a piece of timber supporting it from the floor, now it gone it just sits there.

 

[Coles]

I actually now think it was added. Not sure why the builder didn't think of pulling up the carpet and ply to see how it worked.

Should I now be worried?

 

[Stevers]

Well, there does seem to be just enough of the original spindles to cut the corner following the line of the old floorboards. They wouldn't have wanted the landing as it was for the flat conversion, so it looks like that's when it would have been done. It's most unlikely that those joists are properly cantilevered and explains the plasterboard underneath. It also explains why there was only one length of staff bead visible. I'd be tempted to put it back the way it was, as it will be easier to make good.

 

[Coles]

Well, there does seem to be just enough of the original spindles to cut the corner following the line of the old floorboards. They wouldn't have wanted the landing as it was for the flat conversion, so it looks like that's when it would have been done. It's most unlikely that those joists are properly cantilevered and explains the plasterboard underneath. It also explains why there was only one length of staff bead visible. I'd be tempted to put it back the way it was, as it will be easier to make good.

Thank you. This is one of those unexpected things I don't mind paying extra for. It's just a shame I have had to uncover this and not the builder. Which is another worry.

It looks like when it was turned into flats they were worried about the lack of wall space for a radiator. There isn't any apart from the space they have created.

I actually don't think it's going to make a huge amount of difference with it gone but I guess it also means pipe work needs sorting out on top of taking it down.

I'm not sure if this was there before but one of the spindles has cracked all the way through. I'm worried the weight has done this. But maybe it was like it before and I didn't pay attention.

Another sleepless night ahead.

 

[Stevers]

There are two heights of non-original bannister rail, I wonder if they started to cut that spindle the correct length for the other run of new bannister.

 

[Coles]

There are two heights of non-original bannister rail, I wonder if they started to cut that spindle the correct length for the other run of new bannister.

Oh yes, I didn't even notice that. I think I see it so often I am oblivious. What a mess, now you point it out.

I am concerned about getting it back to how it should look with my current builders.

I guess the first step is to put a temporary post there to support it and then remove that plaster board which should reveal where the original ceiling ended. At least without that plasterboard we can see what is going on.

Where that original floor ended is right next to the entrance of my young sons bedroom, so it needs to be super safe when put back.

Are builders the right people for this or are there stair experts?

 

[Stevers]

You really want a Joiner who can run up mouldings to match existing, as I suspect that there's at least a missing length of hardwood handrail, and then it needs to be properly fastened together (joined!) and finished.

There is a joinery shop here that was then also a high class shopfitters with jobs all over the country, I used them for our conversion and for many little machining jobs since then. One of the casualties of our flat conversion was the stairs, though still in place, a floor had been inserted across the top of them. I spotted that the handrail down to the basement had been pinched from the landing. We used that, the surviving newel post and the few remaining spindles as patterns to remake our staircase exactly as it had been - all in Pitch Pine too.

 

[Coles]

You really want a Joiner who can run up mouldings to match existing, as I suspect that there's at least a missing length of hardwood handrail, and then it needs to be properly fastened together (joined!) and finished.

There is a joinery shop here that was then also a high class shopfitters with jobs all over the country, I used them for our conversion and for many little machining jobs since then. One of the casualties of our flat conversion was the stairs, though still in place, a floor had been inserted across the top of them. I spotted that the handrail down to the basement had been pinched from the landing. We used that, the surviving newel post and the few remaining spindles as patterns to remake our staircase exactly as it had been - all in Pitch Pine too.

I really can't thank you enough for your help. Naively I thought this was all going to be straight forward.

So the balusters and rail should follow this line in the pic. I have counted 8 original balusters on this new addition, we will obviously reuse them. 8 seems to be the right number to fit across.

Then get the joiner to replicate the handrail, unless it's been reused somewhere else.

 

[Cubist]

You are absolutely right Cole, you did indeed create a post to discuss this topic. I distinctly remember it as the time I offered some suggestions concerning this flying landing. The phenomenon of posts and their ensuing threads of replies from others going AWOL is not uncommon and over the last couple of years I have seen several vanish without trace. There seems to be no explanation for this but it does seem to be associated with the transfer of the site to the current hosting service. Maybe Twig or Malcolm could look into this.

The explanatory contributions from others above more than covers my own at the time however, these latest photos suggest to me that at one time those stairs opened out on to an open gallery landing sited above the vestibule on the ground floor and running to the front of the property and then turning to the left to enter a bedroom. If I'm right theres a good chance that the original landing was extended with the addition of new bridging joists to create additional space to create a self contained flat on that floor. It would also be fair to assume that the new bridging joists would run right to left over the foyer, in which case - the flying landing is unlikely to have been created using other cantilevered joists and I suspect this new flying landing is merely bolted, or otherwise secured, to the last bridging joist between the original two rooms.

In light therefore of the other - misdemeanours is too soft a term - crimes against the house and its previous owners perpetrated by the builders, I for one would not trust the landing to support any but the most lightly built builder; of such there are precious few.

I'm sorry to report that this property of yours has now arrived at the top of my personal list of 'Boo Boxes'.

 

[Stevers]

It looks like when it was turned into flats they were worried about the lack of wall space for a radiator. There isn't any apart from the space they have created.

Since heat rises, I've often wondered at the usefulness of radiators on first floor landings. Ours very rarely, if ever, calls for heat and certainly wouldn't be missed.

 

[Cubist]

Since heat rises, I've often wondered at the usefulness of radiators on first floor landings. Ours very rarely, if ever, calls for heat and certainly wouldn't be missed.

True, and always the ones that traps most air.

 

[Coles]

You are absolutely right Cole, you did indeed create a post to discuss this topic. I distinctly remember it as the time I offered some suggestions concerning this flying landing. The phenomenon of posts and their ensuing threads of replies from others going AWOL is not uncommon and over the last couple of years I have seen several vanish without trace. There seems to be no explanation for this but it does seem to be associated with the transfer of the site to the current hosting service. Maybe Twig or Malcolm could look into this.

The explanatory contributions from others above more than covers my own at the time however, these latest photos suggest to me that at one time those stairs opened out on to an open gallery landing sited above the vestibule on the ground floor and running to the front of the property and then turning to the left to enter a bedroom. If I'm right theres a good chance that the original landing was extended with the addition of new bridging joists to create additional space to create a self contained flat on that floor. It would also be fair to assume that the new bridging joists would run right to left over the foyer, in which case - the flying landing is unlikely to have been created using other cantilevered joists and I suspect this new flying landing is merely bolted, or otherwise secured, to the last bridging joist between the original two rooms.

In light therefore of the other - misdemeanours is too soft a term - crimes against the house and its previous owners perpetrated by the builders, I for one would not trust the landing to support any but the most lightly built builder; of such there are precious few.

I'm sorry to report that this property of yours has now arrived at the top of my personal list of 'Boo Boxes'.

Yesterday I visited the neighbours and it confirmed that our upstairs layout has been massacred. Their is original and looks amazing. In ours they have taken down walls, removed small hallways and changed angles of doors to make more rooms. Yes we have more room but at the expense of the hallway, which originally felt light and airy. Now it's all squished.

Anyway the added landing is coming down today, it was cracking. So it will be great to see it gone. Totally unsafe.

 

[Coles]

Now it's gone, it looks so much better and makes complete sense. I can look down now and see the floor below.

That landing would likely have just collapsed as it was basically just wood under it, not doing anything. So the whole thing was held up by the stud wall. It's quite a drop down so I am relieved it's gone.

 

[Stevers]

Cor, doesn't that look just so much better! It looks like there might still be some plasterboard up, so am eagerly awaiting developments there. Looking forward to seeing the staff beads, nosings, handrail and spindles reinstated!

 

[Coles]

Cor, doesn't that look just so much better! It looks like there might still be some plasterboard up, so am eagerly awaiting developments there. Looking forward to seeing the staff beads, nosings, handrail and spindles reinstated!

Thanks, yes there is still some plasterboard and skim where they joined it to the original.

The original rail is just really tight to my 10 year olds bedroom door. So tonight he will sleep downstairs and I just hope they make it really robust.

But it's very exciting to see it going back to how it was.

 

[Cubist]

I think that merits a 'Wow!'

Removing that carbuncle to expose the foyer floor and keeping it in view while climbing the stairs and must have been really satisfying as an early payback for the commitment to rid the house of the vandalism of previous owners and their hirelings. Please, you must keep us all posted on your future progress, my thanks in anticipation.

I must also thank you for bringing to mind a conversation with my father that proved quite helpful to me in my professional capacity. Perhaps something about that separately.

Cheers,
Cubist

 

[a twig]

Good decision well made and a great improvement!