Lias Stone or Black & White Timber??

[AnnieB]

Hi all. New to this site, but there’s loads of useful info - thank you all

We’re in the process of moving house and trying to choose between a Lias Stone barn conversion and a 17C black and white timber cottage.

Having previously had a highly insulated (but ugly!) 1960’s building, we’re looking forward to the period features and a more compact home. But what should we be thinking about in terms of their sustainability and maintenance?

I’ve been trying to find out their relative thermal properties - the stone building has been beautifully done, but has interior and exterior exposed stone. The timber frame has brick exterior and wattle/daub interior. Both have small single glazed metal windows.

Obviously we will get a specialist survey (especially for the listed timber building) but what should we be asking/considering?

Thanks in anticipation

 

[aockenden]

As a general rule, I believe buying a historic timber-frame house carries more risk than buying a historic stone-house of the same age. This is because the timber frame’s structural components (timber) are more susceptible to catastrophic damage (rot) from the use of inappropriate materials than stone houses.

If a timber-frame has been slathered in cement and / or has high ground levels and / or broken drains and / or bad gutters and / or a million other problems, it can destroy the house’s structural integrity relatively quickly. Those same problems applied to a stone house will typically cause issues like damp, mold, and some moderate damage to stonework (spalling and whatnot), but they USUALLY don’t cause the house to literally fall over.

However, both carry real risks when buying, as the large majority of home-owners who own period properties don’t understand them and typically pay bog-standard bodge builders (who also don’t understand the buildings) to do work on them. So you will often be buying the accumulated mistakes of the industrial post-war period. Buyer beware!

 

[AnnieB]

As a general rule, I believe buying a historic timber-frame house carries more risk than buying a historic stone-house of the same age. This is because the timber frame’s structural components (timber) are more susceptible to catastrophic damage (rot) from the use of inappropriate materials than stone houses.

If a timber-frame has been slathered in cement and / or has high ground levels and / or broken drains and / or bad gutters and / or a million other problems, it can destroy the house’s structural integrity relatively quickly. Those same problems applied to a stone house will typically cause issues like damp, mold, and some moderate damage to stonework (spalling and whatnot), but they USUALLY don’t cause the house to literally fall over.

However, both carry real risks when buying, as the large majority of home-owners who own period properties don’t understand them and typically pay bog-standard bodge builders (who also don’t understand the buildings) to do work on them. So you will often be buying the accumulated mistakes of the industrial post-war period. Buyer beware!

Thank you!!. I know we need to do more research (fortunately I love geeking out on new stuff!!)

The stone building was an 80’s conversion within conservation area.
The timber used to be three 1 up, 1 down cottages - all we know yet is the previous owner was there 30+ years and has allegedly done very little - the garden was their passion.

Can anyone recommend a timber specialist in Warwickshire?

 

[aockenden]

Honestly if I were buying another mystery-meat stone house I would PREFER one that had exposed internal and external stonework. At least it’s more of a blank slate to be properly redone with lime / clay renders and plasters. Less work required than having to hack off however many inches of whatever crap had been layered onto it over the years.

 

[malcolm]

I would be looking at what work has been done in the past. Since the 1960s it's been common to treat old houses with the cement and waterproofing that fits better with new house construction. A big part of the philosophy for keeping old houses dry is letting water get out is probably more important than trying to stop water getting in.

So when you see a timber framed house with cement pointed or rendered infill and modern black plastic paint on the timber, or worse rot in the timber filled in with cement there would be work needed to get the building back to being breathable. Same with the stone build. If it's cement pointed it's breathability will be reduced and the wall will tend to become wet and cold over time.

Choice of surveyors is tricky. Fortunately I'm not a surveyor as I would say don't buy anything. They will tend to point out what is bad at the moment but won't necessarily point out what might go bad in the future. For the timber frame house a company specialising in timber frames would be much better than a general surveyor as they'll know what works and what doesn't.

 

[TudorCottage]

From a timber frame cottage prospective the thermal properties are pretty low. In really cold weather our cottage is a real bugger to keep warm despite having a really efficient heating system.

If one of those thermal cameras was put on it, it would light up like Blackpool illuminations.

I’m slowly working my way through plugging the gaps. But with single glazed windows and no cavity walls it’s a tuff ask. I’m convinced it’s the walls rather than the drafts, in very cold weather the interior walls are freezing. On the flip side in really hot weather it stays a lot cooler than most houses.

I knew nothing about older properties when we first looked at our cottage but I could tell it had been looked after and maintained in the correct manor by the previous owners. It certainly didn’t feel like a house that was nearly 500 years old. I guess we just got lucky.

We did have a full structural survey done by a guy who had surveyed many older properties and he pointed out a few minor issues. We then contacted a carpenter with experience of timber framed buildings who rectified the issues within a week of us moving in. They were very minor.

I class myself as a basic diy’er but through reading many pages on here, looking on the internet and buying a few period property books I’ve managed to sort most issues myself. As I said earlier though, maybe we just got lucky.

Good luck.

 

[AnnieB]

Thank you. It looks very pretty tho!!!

 

[jamest]

I've owned two timber framed properties in Warwickshire. Owning the first should have put me off the second, but for some reason I love 'em. Perhaps it's old memories from my childhood of visiting my grandparents in their timber framed cottage. What I can say is that it's hard to find surveyors who know anything about them. Given that there are so many such houses in Warcks, that's a bit of a surprise. I had a full structural survey done on the first one and it was basically a waste of money, so much so, that I didn't bother getting a professional survey done on the second one (I'm in it now) - I did it myself, based on what I had discovered living in the first one.

A couple of things are worth looking for yourself. First, is there a sole plate? If there is, can you stick a knife blade or screwdriver into it? If you can, don't buy it! I've noticed around here (Stratford area) that many of the cottages don't have sole plates - there's just brick where the sole plate once was. That's better than a rotten one, at least financially. If you've got a rotten one in a listed building, you'll need to replace it and that's expensive.

Second, if you can see the timber frame externally (generally a good thing, 'cause that means it's not covered in cement) is it the original frame you're looking at or has it been planked over? I've seen a number of cottages with planks covering the timber frame underneath and the only reason for doing that is to hide some serious nastiness. Probably best to avoid if you can't get to see the historic frame externally.

Third, has it been covered in what they call Tyrolean render? That's the knobby, thinnish cement render that's a bit like pebbledash, but almost always painted white. That stuff is very common in Warwickshire and is extremely difficult to remove - is was blown onto the walls (rather than troweled on) and it sticks like the proverbial sh^&t. My first house (see above) was rendered with it, but the previous owner had had the house re-rendered over the top, so I only noticed when I removed a bit. If I saw a timber framed house with Tyrolean render, I'd run a mile.

Final thing - people worry about wood worm, by which they typically mean the larvae of the common furniture beetle. Historic infestations are nothing to worry about in oak frames as the larvae typically only eat the sapwood and not the structural heart wood. What matters is rot, current or historic - that's what your surveyor should be looking for.

I can confirm what TudorCottage said about heating. Look for single skin brick infill panels - that's brick walls about 10 cm thick - they get very cold and are about as good as a double glazed window for keeping the heat in (or letting it out).

I'd probably go with the barn conversion!

 

[a twig]

Another vote for the stone here, especially if all the walls are bare as said above, should you decide to lime plaster etc you are saved the awful job of hacking off

 

[AnnieB]

I've owned two timber framed properties in Warwickshire. Owning the first should have put me off the second, but for some reason I love 'em. Perhaps it's old memories from my childhood of visiting my grandparents in their timber framed cottage. What I can say is that it's hard to find surveyors who know anything about them. Given that there are so many such houses in Warcks, that's a bit of a surprise. I had a full structural survey done on the first one and it was basically a waste of money, so much so, that I didn't bother getting a professional survey done on the second one (I'm in it now) - I did it myself, based on what I had discovered living in the first one.

A couple of things are worth looking for yourself. First, is there a sole plate? If there is, can you stick a knife blade or screwdriver into it? If you can, don't buy it! I've noticed around here (Stratford area) that many of the cottages don't have sole plates - there's just brick where the sole plate once was. That's better than a rotten one, at least financially. If you've got a rotten one in a listed building, you'll need to replace it and that's expensive.

Second, if you can see the timber frame externally (generally a good thing, 'cause that means it's not covered in cement) is it the original frame you're looking at or has it been planked over? I've seen a number of cottages with planks covering the timber frame underneath and the only reason for doing that is to hide some serious nastiness. Probably best to avoid if you can't get to see the historic frame externally.

Third, has it been covered in what they call Tyrolean render? That's the knobby, thinnish cement render that's a bit like pebbledash, but almost always painted white. That stuff is very common in Warwickshire and is extremely difficult to remove - is was blown onto the walls (rather than troweled on) and it sticks like the proverbial sh^&t. My first house (see above) was rendered with it, but the previous owner had had the house re-rendered over the top, so I only noticed when I removed a bit. If I saw a timber framed house with Tyrolean render, I'd run a mile.

Final thing - people worry about wood worm, by which they typically mean the larvae of the common furniture beetle. Historic infestations are nothing to worry about in oak frames as the larvae typically only eat the sapwood and not the structural heart wood. What matters is rot, current or historic - that's what your surveyor should be looking for.

I can confirm what TudorCottage said about heating. Look for single skin brick infill panels - that's brick walls about 10 cm thick - they get very cold and are about as good as a double glazed window for keeping the heat in (or letting it out).

I'd probably go with the barn conversion!

Thank you for the advice . The timber frame is on the Worcs/Warks border, but we’re mostly looking around Stratford

 

[AnnieB]

Another vote for the stone here, especially if all the walls are bare as said above, should you decide to line plaster etc you are saved the awful job of hacking off

Thank you. I think they are partly bare for ‘aesthetic reasons - to show off the beautiful stone! I’m assuming the plastered bits are typical/modern plaster

 

[aockenden]

… the awful job of hacking off

So true. Damn grueling, filthy, depressing work, even with an SDS. I often find myself in a pit of mental despair most black when I’m in the middle of a tranche of cement render removal. Sick stuff.