Lime Pointing

[mattc]

Hi All,

I have a bit of a problem, i've hired a company to grind out and re-point my victorian brickwork, and after the first day i think they have caused a lot of damage. They claim its fine, and it always looks bad until you put the mortar back, and i don't know enough to call them out.

The picture attached shows one example where they have used a mortar rake to just gouge through the arch bricks, widening previously 5mm gaps out to about 12 - 15mm straight through the bricks. You can also see where they've slipped and just gouged into the bricks.

That is only one example of the damage, it's pretty extensive across the whole house. also the raking in general is not to the depth i would have expected, 20 - 25mm? i'm concerned that the damaged bricks are now susceptible to water ingress which will cause me even bigger problems in a few years time.

basically i need some advice about what they should have done so i can go armed into my discussion with them tomorrow...

Thanks all

Matt

 

[malcolm]

That is terrible work. Here's some backup from English Heritage about how it should be done: https://historicengland.org.uk/imag...lls/heag144-repointing-brick-and-stone-walls/

Looks like you had fine jointing and they've taken a grinder and made the joints 10 times as wide and ruined the bricks in the process. You aren't supposed to grind through the bricks. Only grind the mortar where it can be done without touching the bricks and then finish by hand. They've used the grinder on the verticals and damaged the bricks above and below. And you are right the depth for the size they have cut out would normally be 20mm. For finer pointing like you once had raked out by hand as it should be would be closer to 10mm.

If it were me I would stop the work. These people don't know what they are doing and if they care so little to have caused that much damage they are probably the type that will add cement in to the mortar to make it easier to use which will cause you even more problems in the future. Old bricks need to be pointed in lime else you'll get damp. The finish of the bricks looks odd. Have they sandblasted too?

The wall is ruined. I would either get a real lime pointing firm or DIY it. Certainly delay to give yourself some time to think.

 

[stuart45]

A gauged and rubbed arch needs to be raked out carefully with something like a hacksaw blade. Agree with Malcolm to stop the work. The best you can do with the arch now is to tuck point it, which is known as a poor man's gauged brickwork.

 

[Kearn]

Tell them to do one asap. Pay not a penny. And threaten, or indeed, follow through with a claim for damages and putting this right. This is atrocious ‘work’ if you can term it that… they clearly don’t give a rats arse and should not be near a building of any craft. Sadly the damage is done, but as others have said, don’t let them do more through heavy handedness of shoving sand and cement back in with their podgy mitts.

How did you find these people in the first place…?

 

[mattc]

Hi All,
Thanks for the input, annoyingly, it appears that legally even if you tell them to stop work you still need to pay, and then follow up with legal action:

How to complain if you're unhappy with building work - Which?

Are you unhappy with the standard of the building work you've received? Our step-by-step guide explains your rights and helps you resolve a trader dispute.

www.which.co.uk

i made the newbie mistake of using checkatrade who apparently don't do any checking at all. the trouble is for time-poor people is how else do you find skilled tradesmen? i suspect i will end up DIY'ing the repair but it won't be done soon...

Thanks
Matt

 

[Cubist]

annoyingly, it appears that legally even if you tell them to stop work you still need to pay, and then follow up with legal action:

Appalling! If it were me I would have seized all their kit, registered charges for criminal damage and vandalism, posted personalised No Trespass orders around the house, placed adverts in the local press and told them they could sue me for their work.

 

[stuart45]

Have you entered into a written contract?

 

[Cubist]

An afterthought - have you read Checkatrades 'Standard' document concerning their expectations regarding quality of workmanship. etc.? May be unlikely that they will put their hands in the pocket to compensate you, but at least you may get them making life difficult for the outfit responsible.

 

[CarolineTheChemist]

Matt, in case it helps you feel better, we’ve also run a foul of builders who mess up lime pointing.
We had a heritage company repoint our chimney and it looks great, so we asked them back a few months later to do part of a side elevation on the house. The same guy as before, except this time it’s absolutely awful. It’s so awful I wake up at night thinking about it. We think he must have been in a hurry or something - no idea how he made it look so bad. Just yesterday I was looking at photos of how it looked before and I wish we’d never done it! We’ve since found a guy who can repair it a bit. He’s a specialist in tuck pointing and gauged brickwork - we’re just saving up to be able to afford him.
I think sometimes things just don’t always go right and it’s not always easy to know how much care someone will take until it’s too late. Hopefully the new guy won’t be a disappointment either…. …the proof will be in the pudding!

 

[Lacan07]

Your supposed to use a plugging chisel to rake out the old mortar by hand, usually to a depth double the width of the joint i think. Any other tool, especially a grinder, isn't recommended due to the soft brick usually found with old houses. The joints should then be filled, pushed in firmly, and set flush with the surface of the brick to avoid sitting water. Aesthetically these 'sausage' joints can be a problem as it rarely matches the original

 

[George Gaduzo]

Hi All,
Thanks for the input, annoyingly, it appears that legally even if you tell them to stop work you still need to pay, and then follow up with legal action:

How to complain if you're unhappy with building work - Which?

Are you unhappy with the standard of the building work you've received? Our step-by-step guide explains your rights and helps you resolve a trader dispute.

www.which.co.uk

i made the newbie mistake of using checkatrade who apparently don't do any checking at all. the trouble is for time-poor people is how else do you find skilled tradesmen? i suspect i will end up DIY'ing the repair but it won't be done soon...

Thanks
Matt

Hi All,

I have a bit of a problem, i've hired a company to grind out and re-point my victorian brickwork, and after the first day i think they have caused a lot of damage. They claim its fine, and it always looks bad until you put the mortar back, and i don't know enough to call them out.

The picture attached shows one example where they have used a mortar rake to just gouge through the arch bricks, widening previously 5mm gaps out to about 12 - 15mm straight through the bricks. You can also see where they've slipped and just gouged into the bricks.

That is only one example of the damage, it's pretty extensive across the whole house. also the raking in general is not to the depth i would have expected, 20 - 25mm? i'm concerned that the damaged bricks are now susceptible to water ingress which will cause me even bigger problems in a few years time.

basically i need some advice about what they should have done so i can go armed into my discussion with them tomorrow...

Thanks all

Matt

View attachment 10514

There are people/companies that are very good at repointing using lime. You have to be very careful, ask to see previous examples of their work, and ask for client contact details. Regarding, payment for work that is not satisafactory, seek legal advise. If there wasn’t a building specification or reputable building contract in place then you need to speed to citizen advise. Always better to employ a building company that has built up a good reputation for this kind of work.

 

[88v8]

Hi All,

I have a bit of a problem, i've hired a company to grind out and re-point my victorian brickwork, and after the first day i think they have caused a lot of damage. They claim its fine, and it always looks bad until you put the mortar back, and i don't know enough to call them out.

The picture attached shows one example where they have used a mortar rake to just gouge through the arch bricks,

Jeez, what clowns.
Power tools should never be used for repointing. Yes, I know they exist, but they're impossible to use without mangling the brick..

Let them sue you for their fee, you can counter-sue for the damage.

 

[mardinor]

I would go beyond withholding payment and sue them for repairing the damage to the bricks. They will have liability insurance.

 

[Lacan07]

I'll be doing all of my repointing, it may take me much longer and I'll have to look into moving away from the NHL based mortar I've been using for general work thus far, but I'd do a damn sight better job than that. I hate having to deal with the 'professionals', its such a headache.

 

[Toby Newell]

Hi All,

I have a bit of a problem, i've hired a company to grind out and re-point my victorian brickwork, and after the first day i think they have caused a lot of damage. They claim its fine, and it always looks bad until you put the mortar back, and i don't know enough to call them out.

The picture attached shows one example where they have used a mortar rake to just gouge through the arch bricks, widening previously 5mm gaps out to about 12 - 15mm straight through the bricks. You can also see where they've slipped and just gouged into the bricks.

That is only one example of the damage, it's pretty extensive across the whole house. also the raking in general is not to the depth i would have expected, 20 - 25mm? i'm concerned that the damaged bricks are now susceptible to water ingress which will cause me even bigger problems in a few years time.

basically i need some advice about what they should have done so i can go armed into my discussion with them tomorrow...

Thanks all

Matt

View attachment 10514

HOLY MOTHER OF CRAP. Tell them to leave immediately, I have worked in restoration for 38 years with some of the top restorers in the UK from all trades, utter cowboys and no, you do not need to pay them, they are negligent, they do not know what they are doing. Checkatrade is a con like all such bodies, they earn money by selling stickers, infact that is a warning sign for me, good trades don't need stickers.

Sorry to hear about your issue, money is probably lost but stop them before they do more damage.

 

[Toby Newell]

I would go beyond withholding payment and sue them for repairing the damage to the bricks. They will have liability insurance.

Agree, small claims, they will probably not pay, you need an expert witness.

Incorrect. Public liability explicitly does not cover poor quality workmansip or damage caused by lack of skill. It expressly only covers accidental damage occuring adjacent to the sanctioned task.

 

[Toby Newell]

Where are you? Let me get in contact with one of my previous clients, he had a similar problem with Albanian builders, he then got a SW London based firm in who were great, as I recall they turned up in braces and flat caps! Looked like a 1940's fancy dress outfit, think they were something like the traditional brick co or what not, top class.