Lime Render in October?

[malcolm]

My new timber frame to replace the rotten frame in the gable has been delayed again and again because the guy that is making it is busy. This has been really frustrating. Installation has now been delayed until 8th October. Rendering and limewashing will take at least another week (two weeks probably given my usual underestimation of time) bringing completion towards late October.

Is it sensible to go ahead with rendering after 8th October, and could lots of hessian and maybe a bit of bubble wrap or perhaps an electric blanket or two preserve the render from frost? Is there a clever way to prevent frost damage? I understand the render will take a long time to dry in cooler weather and will be at risk of frost damage.

Or would it be better to board the new frame with OSB until May and render it then?

Or should I put off the whole installation until next year, board the old frame with OSB, and use the time to figure out a better way of extending two floor joists to extend them to meet the new frame rather than supporting them by some further new structure as the original plan?

 

[Zebra]

Well, your last suggestion may be good for reasons other than rendering, I can't really comment on that, but I would say that it's not necessarily too late to render in October. It can be quite good then, as it's not too warm, but not frosty either. My house was done then - have a look here if you're interested. http://periodproperty.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13321
Mind you, that was NHL, not putty-based, so went off in a couple of days. What are you using?

 

[Zebra]

I don't know about electric blankets, I think that may be a step too far, but old bedspreads, blankets, curtains, dustsheets, tarpaulins, bubble wrap, anything. Doesn't have to be hessian. I did layers with the sheets and blankets underneath and the bubble wrap or tarpaulins on top.

 

[malcolm]

I'm planning to use NHL. It's on a north facing wall and the brickwork I did last week (removing the remains of the timber frame that passed through the chimney) is still damp and hasn't needed tending. I'm nervous about drying time. On the other hand it will be a lot easier to render while the scaffolding is still up.

I'm quite angry at the delay. Today was screwed up by the lead worker not bothering to turn up or call to let me know. Need to calm down and plan it through.

 

[Zebra]

I feel for you. It's annoying when you're trying your hardest and people let you down. I find it really stressful being dependent on other people.
Can you make a sort of loose, weather-dependent arrangement with the renderers, so that once the carpentry is done you have the option to either go for it or make the decision to delay until next year? Can you get hold of the materials at short notice? The building won't suffer if you put it off, I'm sure.

 

[malcolm]

I'm planning to do the rendering myself and have the materials so should be able to control timing fairly tightly. I guess I can decide next week, though it's only a couple of days work so I might as well give it a go and do it again next year if it is frost damaged. I'm guessing drying enough to resist frost will take a month although I should be unlucky to have frost in November so I might get away with it

I'm thinking about installing some rings in the brickwork to hold the hessian/ bubblewrap covering. That way I can take the scaffolding down and undo the covering later by undoing a few ropes.

The extra week will give me more time to think about the two joists eithet side of the chimney rotten with the old frame. I can extend them with a bit of steel but installing will damage a floor and ceiling. I was thinking about installing a stud wall downstairs so could extend the chimney a little with brickwork to support the joists at the same time.

 

[Zebra]

If you're doing it yourself then I agree you might as well give it a go while the scaffolding's there. I don't think that drying enough to resist frost will take a month for NHL.
I'm away next week but if it's the week after I could pop up and give you a hand!

 

[malcolm]

Would you? The frame is going in at the end of next week. The weekend will be installing the wood wool board then the first coat of render on Monday hopefully. It would be much more fun with two people on the job.

 

[Zebra]

I can bring my own trowel, hawk, paddle and bucket! And would be great to have a nose about! We'll have to see what the weather's doing though....

 

[King of the Monkeys]

Hi,
As a long time reader of the forum, but not a poster... Hi All.

I work / run a small business specializing in lime work, we work all year round not just the months that are thought to be possible. Over the last 5 years we have worked out side almost all winter ... except when prolonged freezing has been forecast, we rarely cover up as described in the original post (sometimes do!) and primarily work with non - hydraulic limes in as a hot mix. We have lost part of 1 wall to frost and that was 4 or 5 years ago when everything froze for a few weeks.

I guess what I am saying is do the work now, especially if the substrate is not water logged, which could prevent any drying of the render and hence damage during freezing weather.

 

[malcolm]

Thanks for posting King of the Monkeys - that has given me a lot more confidence. I will be rendering onto woodwool board which will be ventilated to the rear (the oak frame will be the outer skin of a cavity wall vented to the roof space). Apart from being north facing it ought to dry enough unless we get a very early frost.

I ought to finish the front of the house at the weekend, so just the timber frame and rendering and the scaffolding can come down.

 

[Zebra]

Hello King of the Monkeys. How nice to see another exotic mammal on here. What am I saying? We're all exotic mammals on here. Another non-human, I mean. Greetings.

 

[malcolm]

I decided to give rendering a try despite the timber frame taking much longer than planned to erect. Making the frame watertight without rendering was going to be tricky and it should only take around 3 days to complete the render so not much time wasted if it falls off and needs doing next year.

I quite like the colour of the render. Just around the corner of the building is the mock tudor facade which is painted black and white. The new timber frame will be exposed oak so won't match anyway, and I'm wondering about limewash in a lighter shade of the render colour but far from magnolia so no yellow. Anyone have any tips or recipes? I once ordered dark brown linseed paint from a traditional supplier and it was pink when it arrived, so I'm not very trusting of online colour charts.

Some protection set up for when night time temperatures fall below around 5 degrees.

 

[Flyfisher]

Nice looking job. I think you're wise to have done it before winter. As you say, worst case it wouldn't take long to redo but I bet you won't have to and meanwhile you have good protection for when the bad weather really arrives.

. . . I'm wondering about limewash in a lighter shade of the render colour but far from magnolia so no yellow. Anyone have any tips or recipes? I once ordered dark brown linseed paint from a traditional supplier and it was pink when it arrived, so I'm not very trusting of online colour charts.

We went through exactly the same thought process when we had our house re-rendered last year. We really liked the lime render colour, possibly because we'd only ever seen it in white, and it prompted us to experiment with a few different limewash colours - nothing extreme, just more of an 'off white'. However, in the end we opted to go with plain limewash on the basis that it would be almost impossible to accurately match any chosen colour a few years later, which would commit us to re-limewashing everything in one go, which is quite a large job.

Just one year on I was pleased with this decision as there were a few settlement cracks to fill and re-limewash and it was a simple job to match with plain limewash without having to re-limewash whole big areas of the render. Also, as you have rendered between your oak frame, then you will likely have small gaps open up between the render and the oak which will be easy to fill with a bit more lime render but will mean the entire panel would have to be re-limewashed with your chosen colour, which would probably not be the case with plain limewash. Just a thought.

 

[livias]

I can let you have some yellow ochre to add into the limewash cos I have loads. If you just add a little then it turns it from lime white to warm white which I have used on the cotfage exterior. I put a little more in the interior limewash as Pat was adamant that she didn't want white walls and they are a lovely sophisticated off white with hints of yellow and grey. I use real yellow ochre, not a synthetic created by Bayer cos I am fussy and like to decorate in slightly muddy colours, so much easier to live with imo

 

[Zebra]

Flyfisher's comments are very sensible. You could of course always do it in white for now and add a coloured coat later. In any case, where I've used coloured limewash I've done two coats of plain white first, and then two coats of coloured on top.

I like Ty Mawr's raw sienna as a pigment to add to limewash. You can buy sample pots quite cheaply. You can write down the ratios as you go - for example using a kitchen measuring spoon - and then get a reasonable match later. Mix any pigment into a paste with water before you add it to the limewash. If you are making your own limewash, it's even better to add it to the putty, mix to a coloured paste, then add the water. Otherwise you end up chasing the lumps of pigment round the pot and it doesn't get well mixed in. I was using a 20ml kitchen measuring spoon of pigment to three litres of limewash.

 

[malcolm]

Thanks everyone. I might go white for now as a slight colour tint might look a bit strange against the white facade, although white might look a bit bright embedded in a brick wall. A more daring colour change would be easier to judge once the scaffolding has been removed and I can take photos and photoshop them. I can always change the colour later when I am up there filling gaps.

I haven't seen the cottage since it was painted. Must pop up for a nosey.

 

[Keith Bowman]

If you need lime render to set quickly this http://www.anglialime.com/thermalime.htm material from Anglia Lime looks interesting. (I have no connection with the company other than being a satisfied customer for various lime products.)

 

[malcolm]

That looks like interesting stuff. I have been very lucky with the weather so far. It is lovely to work with lime in these temperatures as you can work up to the end of the day, let it firm up overnight, then finish it the next day. There is plenty of other lime work to do while the first coat dries. I built a brick wall 2 inches long and 8 feet tall yesterday and did some mock-Roman tile infill today.

Hopefully the final coat of render will go on Saturday and all of the lime work will be complete for the year.

 

[tobydog]

I received the same advert from Anglia Lime today as I've bought products from them before. Thermalime would be ideal for one of our internal north facing walls which is cement rendered, damp and cold.

I built a brick wall 2 inches long and 8 feet tall yesterday and did some mock-Roman tile infill today.

:?