Looking to buy a 16c house in Suffolk

[markaldous]

Hi all,
new to this forum, have not had the need before, which will become obvious.

We're looking to buy a detached grade 2 listed house in Suffolk which has had a comprehensive survey completed on it.
I will say here that I am at a very good DIY level and can turn my hands to pretty much anything..

The survey has identified that the roof trusses have rot in them due to wood worm and beetle attacks - so if we go through with the purchase then the whole roof will come off and woodwork repaired/replace etc and re-tiled in the pantiles that are currently on it.

so my first question here is.
have any of you had a listed building that HAD access to the attic and have been granted permission to properly convert into living space? This one has 2/3 obvious rooms up there with one original wattle and daub wall remaining, but no evidence of windows.

2nd question (for now) - this has had the dreaded cement render covering the outside which was circa 70s to 80s. The survey suggests that there are signs of damp at the sill beam area but no rot confirmation evident due to the frame covered still. There is no cracks in the render (there may have been but since repaired). so, would I be capable to repair/replace given my pre mentioned experience? have any of you had similar and learnt on the job? We haven't got the finances to just hand it over to a builder etc.

Thanks in advance,
we're at the stage of planning to make an offer so any advice would be appreciated.

Mark

 

[Flyfisher]

Welcome to the forum and what sounds like some exciting times ahead.

We took on our c16 timber-frame G2* project a bit over 15 years ago. It had suffered decades of neglect, in particular many slipped tiles resulting from rotten battens that had never been repaired so rain would regularly get into the house. There were a couple of places where pooled water had been trapped and the oak timbers had rotted but apart from that the rest of the roof structure was sound and only required a single rafter to be replaced. I'm pretty sure this was because the attic space was so airy, because of all the slipped tiles, that any rain could quickly evaporate and not cause significant damage. For the two areas that needed structural repair, I fabricated some steel straps and fixed them with stainless bolts. My point is that many of these old houses were substantially built and over-engineered and may need less repair than a usually-pessimistic survey by a covering-themself surveyor.

Our substantial attic space had already been converted into living space before listing and dormer windows had been inserted into the front-facing side of the roof, so apart from tidying things up and covering the completely rotten floorboards with a solid floor there was little to do in that respect. It sounds as if a similar thing had been done with your (prospective) house but without windows. If you want to install windows then you'll need to consult with the relevant conservation officer - it's almost impossible to guess their reaction to such an alteration.

Regarding your second question, we also had cement render, dating from the 1930s I believe and extensively (and badly!) patched over the subsequent years. I used a conservation builder to strip and replace the render with lime because, while I'm pretty handy at most things, my plastering skills are very rudimentary. But having seen it done close-up, I would say that anyone with good plastering skill would be able to tackle the job because stripping the cement render and re-lathing the frame is fairly straightforward. As for learning on the job, I've done a lot of that on my project and I think much depends on how you approach things. I regard such things as problems to be solved and I start from the basis that people managed to build the house hundreds of years ago with far more rudimentary tools than are available today and if they could learn how to do it then why can't I? My conclusion is that, in general, a competent DIYer can do pretty much anything BUT it will take them far longer than an experienced tradesman, simply because we all improve with practice and the professional tradesman gets to 'practice' everyday. For the DIYer, the most important thing is the end result and a good job is a good job regardless of how long it took - no one can look at a re-tiled roof and figure out how long it took! So, while I like to think I can tackle almost anything that the house needs, I'm under no illusion that I could earn a living at it because I would be far too slow!

Finally, you say you're at the planning stage. Because of the state of our house, we thought long and hard about it before jumping in and what helped us enormously was that we were able to meet with our CO beforehand and discuss our plans and idea for the house. In fact we had a few meetings, on site, and he was very knowledgeable, helpful and supportive and we've had many other meetings and discussions since. That, and advice from this forum, persuaded us that it was a feasible project. I can't say I was expecting it to take 15 years and to be honest I wouldn't want to do it all over again, but I don't regret one minute of it. Over the years, I've submitted four LBC applications, all of them after much discussion with our CO and all of them granted first time because of that (even with the need to consult English Heritage as well because of our "star" listing).

I've read many horror stories about intransigent COs but that hasn't been my experience and I would always advise anyone considering taking on a listed property to contact their CO beforehand if it is going to need significant work. Even if it turns out that that the CO is hard to contact, never available or not very helpful, then it's far better to know that before purchase than finding out later on.

Do let us know how things proceed.

 

[jamest]

Can't really comment on your question regarding attic conversions, but it has been done in other GII listed properties, so it's not impossible, but you can't know in advance. Speaking to the CO would help as FF suggests.

Your comment that roof trusses have "rot in them due to wood worm and beetle attacks", makes me a bit suspicious. Worm and beetle are the same thing (worms are the beetle larvae)i and they do not cause rot, unless (perhaps), the holes allow for more water penetration (which is what leads to rot). If the trusses are oak, then the most common type of beetle is not of structural significance as it only attacks the sapwood. However, if deathwatch beetle is involved, the situation could be different as it will attack the heartwood if it's damp. You might be able to tell which it is by measuring the exit holes on the surface of the timber: common woodworm flight holes are about 1-2 mm in diameter, the deathwatch flight holes are between 2 and 6 mm, so larger.

Otherwise, I'd follow FF's excellent, first hand advice! Also, you could strip and re-render the house in lime yourself and save thousands - it's not as if you're trying to get a smooth, polished finish as you might want to if it were indoors. Though whatever approach you were to take might reveal significant rot damage to the timber frame beneath, which would be another matter entirely!

 

[markaldous]

Thanks james, I'll update soon.
We've put an offer in now so now a waiting game

 

[markaldous]

Welcome to the forum and what sounds like some exciting times ahead.

We took on our c16 timber-frame G2* project a bit over 15 years ago. It had suffered decades of neglect, in particular many slipped tiles resulting from rotten battens that had never been repaired so rain would regularly get into the house. There were a couple of places where pooled water had been trapped and the oak timbers had rotted but apart from that the rest of the roof structure was sound and only required a single rafter to be replaced. I'm pretty sure this was because the attic space was so airy, because of all the slipped tiles, that any rain could quickly evaporate and not cause significant damage. For the two areas that needed structural repair, I fabricated some steel straps and fixed them with stainless bolts. My point is that many of these old houses were substantially built and over-engineered and may need less repair than a usually-pessimistic survey by a covering-themself surveyor.

Our substantial attic space had already been converted into living space before listing and dormer windows had been inserted into the front-facing side of the roof, so apart from tidying things up and covering the completely rotten floorboards with a solid floor there was little to do in that respect. It sounds as if a similar thing had been done with your (prospective) house but without windows. If you want to install windows then you'll need to consult with the relevant conservation officer - it's almost impossible to guess their reaction to such an alteration.

Regarding your second question, we also had cement render, dating from the 1930s I believe and extensively (and badly!) patched over the subsequent years. I used a conservation builder to strip and replace the render with lime because, while I'm pretty handy at most things, my plastering skills are very rudimentary. But having seen it done close-up, I would say that anyone with good plastering skill would be able to tackle the job because stripping the cement render and re-lathing the frame is fairly straightforward. As for learning on the job, I've done a lot of that on my project and I think much depends on how you approach things. I regard such things as problems to be solved and I start from the basis that people managed to build the house hundreds of years ago with far more rudimentary tools than are available today and if they could learn how to do it then why can't I? My conclusion is that, in general, a competent DIYer can do pretty much anything BUT it will take them far longer than an experienced tradesman, simply because we all improve with practice and the professional tradesman gets to 'practice' everyday. For the DIYer, the most important thing is the end result and a good job is a good job regardless of how long it took - no one can look at a re-tiled roof and figure out how long it took! So, while I like to think I can tackle almost anything that the house needs, I'm under no illusion that I could earn a living at it because I would be far too slow!

Finally, you say you're at the planning stage. Because of the state of our house, we thought long and hard about it before jumping in and what helped us enormously was that we were able to meet with our CO beforehand and discuss our plans and idea for the house. In fact we had a few meetings, on site, and he was very knowledgeable, helpful and supportive and we've had many other meetings and discussions since. That, and advice from this forum, persuaded us that it was a feasible project. I can't say I was expecting it to take 15 years and to be honest I wouldn't want to do it all over again, but I don't regret one minute of it. Over the years, I've submitted four LBC applications, all of them after much discussion with our CO and all of them granted first time because of that (even with the need to consult English Heritage as well because of our "star" listing).

I've read many horror stories about intransigent COs but that hasn't been my experience and I would always advise anyone considering taking on a listed property to contact their CO beforehand if it is going to need significant work. Even if it turns out that that the CO is hard to contact, never available or not very helpful, then it's far better to know that before purchase than finding out later on.

Do let us know how things proceed.

Thanks so much for your detailed response, it's really appreciated.
I'll update soon as we've just put an offer in.
Regards
Mark

 

[Kearn]

In terms of the roof - obviously as said, the structure may not be as bad / damaged as stated. Old houses, certainly that were once thatched, often suffered historic prolonged water leaks which can do significant damage - we had to replace 2 principal rafters and repair a couple of bridles where water had historically been leaking through the ridge. That said, it does not have to be a roof off job if localised. We did one entirely internally as it was a scarfed repair, the other full length needed a few tiles and batons removing at the eves and ridge, and we slotted the PR in from the outside.

Full roof off tends to get the bat man and building control involved, the first will be mandated and expensive, the latter you ‘should’ notify and then go down the route of trying to insulate to modern standards (NOT materials).

Pantiles are also a notoriously poor tile, lots of movement and water ingress. Equally you also get lots of airflow.

If you think those rooms were once rooms, then personally I’d just use them as such, but lack of windows indicates they maybe were not. It may be that the upper floors originally went to the ridge before a ceiling was inserted, hence the continuing partition infill at the bay. Our old cottage had the same.

However, if you’re going the route of formal conversion, LBC may not be your challenge if you can prove prior use as such, however BC will be more of a hurdle, especially access requirements.

The biggest cost/concern/inconvenience you’ll have is the cement render, plastic paint over a timber frame. This is big bucks and major interference. It’s certainly not a DIY job. And it’s not cheap, or easy to find the right itinerant structural conservation carpenters.

Removing cement render is easily done, however, it needs to be done with caution and a plan as often it becomes structural and what you find underneath may no longer be performing a structural role. In which case there will be a lot of propping required before all the external crap can come off. Really depends on the state of rot, which you will never know until you’ve already gone all in.

Your survey sounds like it may have been undertaken by someone not completely comfortable with an old framed structure sadly.
what were the signs of damp at the sole plate? What were the surveyors recommendations for cause, investigation, repair and ballpark costs? What was their reasoning for the roof damage and extent? As mentioned above, their description is inaccurate, which is a red flag. Beetle will only live in damp timber, greater than 12% moisture content, they do not cause rot. Leaks and lack of airflow cause rot. Then the beetles come to dine.

Without any further info, pics, listing details etc, I would personally proceed with major caution and take a timber framer to survey with you before you part with money.

 

[markaldous]

Hi, thanks for your detailed reasons.
I have attached some pictures I took while in the "attic". You can see the original area wall separation as described.
The rot is difficult to see from the pictures.
The survey stated signs of damp inside and said that the cement render would need to be taken off allowing the frame to breathe and see what damage there is. It's unlikely to be none.
They said there is recent evidence of deathwatch Beetle and woodworm in the loft. They also stated that the attic could be reinstated.
All the frame is unknown at the moment of course.

 

[jamest]

What a wonderful old roof structure that is. If there is indeed evidence of deathwatch beetle, there could be some structural work required and the source of water ingress will need sorting.

Kearn raises a couple of important points. If the attic was once used as some kind of room space (and there seems to be evidence that it was) LBC might be relatively straightforward. Apart from access, the problems would be installation of roof windows and meeting BC regulations where relevant. Getting that roof properly insulated for living purposes would be an issue and would itself require LBC, complicating matters. Also, the attic floor joists don't look very thick. If they are anything like mine (which is a roof of similar construction), there is no way they could support having bedrooms or bathrooms up there. Strengthening/replacing them would again require LBC, which mightn't be forthcoming.

Kearn's point regarding removal of render and damage to the framing timbers beneath is indeed something to be concerned about as I briefly alluded to earlier. It may be fine, but you won't know 'till the render's off. Kearn's cautious approach is probably sensible! If you do find rotted structural timber beneath, that's potentially a major issue, as flagged. Given that the building's listed, you'd need to get it repaired properly: an expensive, specialist job. Gone are the days when you could just rebuild the walls with brick (which is what was done in my house, pre-listing).

Can of worms, these places, but beautiful and worthy of proper care and repair. Forewarned is forearmed!

 

[Kearn]

Now that is an intriguing roof structure. Possibly a decent evolution in pitch/height based on the purlins and the wind bracing at an internal cross frame, although I’d guess that was maybe once an external gable wall, later added onto beyond the stack. Wind braces in the vertical plane beneath the purlins are also curious… in your 5th pic, you can see the jowled post meeting your purlin, this would normally be at the eaves plate. I wonder if your building originally was much narrower and has been widened.

What I would say, is DO NOT consider removing the roof en masse.
What you have there by the looks of it, is effectively an external lime plaster, on lath above the rafters. This is a very good thing indeed, it acts as the ultimate breather membrane, keeping water out and also providing a small amount of insulation.
It’s also quite a rare oddity. I know as we have one… by all accounts, it was a thing in Somerset/Gloucestershire to allow the aforementioned rubbish pantiles to be bedded directly into the lime to keep them in place. Normal practice of lime torching the edges didn’t really work with mobile pantiles! Ours is slightly different in that we do not have pantiles, but triple roman tiles Nibbed over batons with about 2 inch gap above the lime, which makes it even more rare in our situation.

This is a somewhat rare, and incredibly useful feature. It’s also pretty high effort and cost to reinstate.

Our roof in this guise was put in mid 1800s if that helps. Our timber damage was largely done before this point. Therefore you’ll either easily find the points of water entry as there will be gaps in the lime layer, such as where you see daylight. Or it may be historic damage, which still needs repair but the cause has long gone. Any gaps in the lime are easily dealt with, tiles off, new laths on and plaster, the re-bed the localised tiles.

As a gauge of how good this setup is, I stripped our roof internally 2 years ago, just before three major storms came in. Not a drop of ingress and the sound and temp up there wasn’t bad considering. What I removed was press fit polystyrene blocks, coated in plasterboard. Not a single moisture or condensation issue amazingly in 40 years.
What this also means, is that when you come to insulate, you can maximise space and full fill the rafters with genuine sheepswool or woodfibre batts, all the way to the underside of the laths to make a continuous mass of insulation, no need for an air gap. The airy pantiles on top of the lime will manage moisture evaporation that sneaks in.