New to the forum with lots of questions

[B16mts]

Hi folks,

Thank goodness I've found you!

We're soon to be moving into my parents georgian famrhouse. they in turn are moving to the attached house that is pre georgian as my Nana has moved into cheltered accomodation.

Sensibly they want to update/repair the older side before they move in, and its not been touched structuraly apart from cleaning in the last 40-50 years.

There some damp on the walls (though i think its condensation, as it only in the kitchen on external walls behind cupbaords etc.) that they want to be sorted. they would like some insulation on the walls, in the form of foam backed plasterboard (though i'm concerned this would seal the walls from the inside) to try to save energy.

The floor is carpet tiles, over lino, over quarry tiles, over bare soil. they want to dig it out, put visqueen down under a concrete slab with insulaiton in so electric underfloor heating can go on part of it in the kitchen.

The damp issues have only come ot light in the past 10 years or so, for 200 years its been fine. 10 years ago double glazing was fitted, the chimney blocked and oil fired central heating put it. there is no heating in the kitchen or pantry (where the mouldy wall parts are).

the outside of both properties was cement rendered some 60 years ago, and holding up well.

basically i will be using the search function and doing my research, but i thought i might ask anyway.

the main points are, what to do with the walls? insulate? lyme mortar (if so, how? or who?)
and what to do with the floor? i don't want to cause more problems by stopping an otherwise functional building from breathing. similarly if things can be done to modernise and improve efficiency and comfort for my folks, then lets do them

thanks

Martin (from cheshire)

 

[B16mts]

Just to update,

We've stripped the floor in the kitchen/pantry now, and found the pantry to have square quarry tiles on the floor and partially concreted, in the kitchen its blue/red bricks (possibly blue engineering bricks?) on the floor.

not sure if this changes our plans at all.

cheers,

Martin

 

[another_richard]

I think your house is saying thank goodness you have found this website.

 

[Penners]

Hello B16mts. Welcome to the forum.

The damp issues have only come ot light in the past 10 years or so, for 200 years its been fine. 10 years ago double glazing was fitted, the chimney blocked and oil fired central heating put it. there is no heating in the kitchen or pantry (where the mouldy wall parts are).

That seems to sum it up very sensibly. All sources of ventilation have been effectively removed from the house, so condensation seems almost certain to be the culprit for the mould.

I would set about heating and ventilating the kitchen, and exposing the mouldy areas to the air. It's probably a good idea to give them a scrub with some bleachy water first (using the appropriate protection of rubber glove, goggles, etc), to kill the mould. Then - as I said - heat and ventilate the room until it's thoroughly dry. At the same time, I should adopt a belt-and-braces approach and carefully check the exterior of the walls to make sure that there's no cracked rendering, leaking gutters/pipes, rain bounce or other source(s) of exterior penetrating damp.

It'll probably be OK to use insulated plasterboard, so long as your fixing method leaves an air gap between it and the wall, which has ventilation slots top and bottom, to ensure air movement in the void.

As for the floor, others on this forum will know more about this than I do, but I think that UFH over insulation should be fine.

Do keep us in touch with your progress. And we'd love to see some pictures of the property.

 

[MatthewC]

Hi Martin

Well, you've found the right place. Is the building listed or in a Conservation Area? That could limit your scope of action

The damp issues have only come ot light in the past 10 years or so, for 200 years its been fine. 10 years ago double glazing was fitted, the chimney blocked

Now there's a coincidence (not)!

The floor is carpet tiles, over lino, over quarry tiles, over bare soil. they want to dig it out, put visqueen down under a concrete slab with insulaiton in so electric underfloor heating can go on part of it in the kitchen.

If you're digging it out, you could consider laying a limecrete floor, with electric underfloor heating where required, which would still be breathable. This is what I did last year and I'm very pleased with it, but there's a notable lack of knowledge among local professionals about it. Google for Ty Mawr, Mike Wye and other lime product companies and speak to them. (Also see my blog for May 2011 - use the blue spot on the right).

Personally, I would use lime plaster where required rather than using insulated plasterboard. The main source of heat loss in my house is via the windows which are single glazed and very thin old glass. I reckon the thick walls, once dry, are a wonderful heat reservoir.

Remember, don't do anything in a hurry that you might regret.

Matthew

 

[Zebra]

Second the point about not doing anything in too much of a hurry, until you learn more about the materials that older houses need, and the ways in which they need to breathe, move, etc. I know the more I've learned about old houses and traditional materials, the more I've changed my mind about changes I was going to initially make.
Insulation on the walls is good, but if you have a cement render externally, and are going to put a non-breathable layer internally (insulation-backed plasterboard) you could exacerbate your damp problems within the wall, which won't help from a warmth point of view nor will it help the building in the long run.
Is there a dpc in the building? What is its construction? Solid brick? Timber frame? If there is no dpc and you put a non-breathable layer internally, then with the cement render externally you could be causing damp to accumulate within your walls, as it won't be able to evaporate anywhere. I've read on here of people stripping off such non-breathable internal layers, finding all manner of mould, damp and nastiness in behind it, replacing the lot with a breathable lime plaster, and the building being much happier for it (yes the building did say so...)
You ask about lime mortar. Lime mortar would be used for repointing brickwork if it needed it. A lime render could be used externally to replace the cement, although this may be a little major for what you're thinking right now.
As far as the floor is concerned, again, it depends on how your house manages damp. Is there a damp proof course in the walls? If there isn't, then the insertion of a damp proof membrane under the floor can make the damp situation in the wall worse, though not necessarily. A breathable floor can allow moisture from under the building to evaporate gently over a larger area, so you don't get a damp problem concentrated in a smaller area.
In the short term, why not just remove the non-breathable layers which have been applied over the original quarry tiles ie the carpet and the lino, let the floor breathe and dry out for a while, and take it from there.
There are certainly plenty of older houses which continue with quarry tiles, flagstones, pamments and the like just on soil without a problem, and indeed there are old house owners who would not have it any other way.
Sorry for long rant. Hope this helps a little bit.
Always always ask for advice on here, even about the silliest little thing. There are some very knowledgable people on here always willing to help. I know it's been a fabulous resource for me these last two years.
z

 

[MdB]

Building control will have a lot to say on what improvements you make. If you redo more than 25% of the floor / wall then it has to be done to the latest standards.

This means for the floor you will be looking at 100mm of Celotex in an approx 270mm thick minimum total combination. Alternatively for limecrete you will need something like a 400mm thick solution. This could be a lot of digging out and could potentially give you structural issues to deal with.

For your walls you could need to fit something like 50mm of Celotex or double this for more breathable options.

In both cases, I believe you can get around the above in certain cases were it is unreasonable to fit the required amount but I don't know the details. Our neighbours were forced into fitting it and anyway for underfloor heating you want very good insulation so that you don't end up heating the ground.

I would also caution that if you insulate part of the house the part that is uninsulated is likely to suffer more from condensation due to the differences in surface temperatures.

Having said all of that, good insulation is fantastic and we have spent a lot of time and energy insulating ours. We also love our underfloor heating though we have a wet system run from a heatpump.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Hello Martin from Cheshire,

Welcome to the forum.

2 quick points - are you sure you want to lift a (presumably) original floor and put down a dpc and concrete in its place? Aside from losing the original fabric of the house (which is a pity in itself), you may find you introduce damp issues in the walls that were not there for ther past couple of centuries.

Secondly, electric underfloor heating is conveient to install and produces toasty rooms, but it is shockingly expensive to run. Eye wateringly so. I made the mistake once, of calculating the hourly rate for ours, and now I hate switching it on. I wish I'd done two things. Added even more insulation underneath and gone to the extra effort, complexity and expense of installing wet UFH.

 

[B16mts]

Personally i don't want to lift the origonal floor, but my mum does. We've checked the walls and they are indeed dry, so I'm pretty sure the mold is a result of compensation.

They will be reopening the chimney for a small wood burning fire. The primary source of heating is oil fired (and therefore pretty expensive in itself), the underfloor is only to go in the kitchen/breakfast room and will only be on during economy 7 times so its nice underfoot in the morning, then the big southfacing conservatory provides a fair bit of heat during the day, and the log fire does at night.

I think we are sadly going to lift the floor and insulate under. As for the walls i think lime plaster, but others suggest wooden battons with insulated plasterboard on top.

Are the origonal floor bricks worth keeping to sell, or just dump them?

Thanks for being so welcoming, this is just the begining! Ive got to rewire it yet! (im an electrician by trade, but i spend my days lecturing apprentices now)

Martin

 

[MatthewC]

Are the origonal floor bricks worth keeping to sell, or just dump them?

Old bricks and quarry tiles are always worth something - find your local reclamation yard. I got rid of over 500 quarry tiles at 30p each even though they were grotty and tarred. It's also a good feeling getting money for stuff you could have junked.

I'm pretty sure the mold is a result of compensation.

I've been trying ever so hard, but I can't resist pointing out the rather wonderful typo!
And I've even beaten Penners - he must be losing his grip.

 

[plasticpigeon]

If you have to take the floor up (I have quarries on earth and they are dry now after years of being covered although they will always be quite cold) why don't you put the original bricks back on top to finish?

 

[vicky whitworth]

Oh, please don't take up an original floor. There are so few left.
Mum's can be persuaded by their children every time - the frugality, conservative, save the world's precious resources argument carefully and thoughtfully made can do the trick. Mum's often come from a post-war era where everything modern and plastic was great and the old ways were bad. Convince her she's not fully understood the arguments. I have even convinced my mother-in-law that new and old buildings work differently to the extent that she stopped in Exeter city centre the other day pointed at an old building where the stone is crumbling and said, 'that wouldn't have happened if they'd used lime instead of that concrete (pointing)' She's 80 and has every part of her house in plastic (but that's a 1980s horror story).
Vicky

 

[Penners]

And I've even beaten Penners - he must be losing his grip.

I'm afraid that beating Penners is very little to crow about, Matthew. What little grip I ever had disappeared decades ago.

(Adopts Eeyore voice) But I'll be all right. Please don't worry about me. You just carry on without me. I'm just going outside; I may be some time.

 

[JoceAndChris]

Oh dear! Really hope our lovely Mr P is alright?

A big welcome to B16mts, a very exciting new period unfolds. I so agree with Vicky's post about the floor. I've got bricks and flagstones and pamments on earth downstairs in our basement kitchen, they're great. Where concrete has been poured doen there, things aren't so great.

My Mum didn't like our floors all that much, but once she saw what I, a few cans of Liberon and a buffing machine and rugs can do she soon changed her mind. She struggles a bit with the unevenness but has got very used to it, as have I.

There are great sisal and hemp rugs to warm up kitchen pamments and tiles. Once you put them on the non slip underlay mats they really aren't dangerous.

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Well done Vicky for saying what many of us were thinking or hinting at.

It is very difficult to advise new posters who come along to a period property forum and say they want to take fabric out of their old houses, put in concrete, etc. We need to encourage newbies and advise and educate, without preaching or alienating. But I think most of us would disagree with ripping up a floor and dumping/selling on the bricks... we haven't always struck that balance with newbies quite as well in the past. :roll:

I hope we haven't put Martin (from Cheshire) off. Martin, we're a nice bunch with a whole lot of amateur and sometimes (!) expert opinion to offer. We just happen to believe that wherever possible original fabric should be preserved and traditional solutions sought and deployed. If that means some adaptation of our modern lives to fit the historical buildings we are lucky to be temporary custodians of, then so be it.

8)

 

[JoceAndChris]

Beautifully put FW.

There's a hard balance to making it liveable and keeping the fabric. I've got stone stairs in a really bad way. It would be sooo cheap and easy to pour down concrete and level them out, but it's philosophically the wrong thing to do. Letting in bits of stone is what should be done. Or covering the whole thing with new stone treads and risers. Until we can afford that. we'll just go careful and help the aged and very young down.

A sensitive adaptation covers up the historic fabric the new owner doesn't like, in a way that's reversible.

 

[Penners]

we're a nice bunch

Speak for yourself, FW. One or two of us are grouchy old ne'er-do-wells. :evil:

 

[FamilyWiggs]

we're a nice bunch

Speak for yourself, FW. One or two of us are grouchy old ne'er-do-wells. :evil:

Talking of which, how is biff? :wink:

Trusting you are joking DP and all is well. I dare say Mrs P is keeping you busy...

 

[FamilyWiggs]

Beautifully put FW.

Aw shucks!

 

[Feltwell]

Aw shucks!

Not-quite-so-beautifully put, FW :wink:

we're a nice bunch

Speak for yourself, FW. One or two of us are grouchy old ne'er-do-wells. :evil:

Did someone call?