Parting Bead Widths - Casement 'slot' widths

[AnalogKid]

Hello
The Parting beads in my Sash Windows (1890 Victorian Terrace) are 7mm wide.
But the edge that fits into the Sashbox is 6mm to 6.25mm wide (its hard to measure to due to paint etc)
The photo shows where the 7mm width of the parting beads 'steps' down to 5.5mm
(The bead is 22mm depth)

Was/Has there been a tradition of approximately 6mm wide 'sash box' gap width for parting beads somewhere in past times

The reason for posting is

1) I'd like to use the Migton Brushed parting beads. They do come in 7mm, but 7mm does not fit the box 'Gap'

2) Is there some form of guided hand tool that could 'cut' that lower step or possibly scrape the wood away by approximately 1mm
(setting up a jig for a router might not be that easy, and a hand plane would be tricky

Hope someone can offer some thoughts

 

[CliffordPope]

I've occasionaly found that one just won't fit because it's too wide. I just lay it flat on a bench and plane a slight taper. It doesn't have to be that precise - in fact it's quite useful if it needs tapping gently to stop it falling out.

 

[Cubist]

Hi There and Welcome,

Traditionally a rebate or shoulder plane would be used to make such partings. They are still available in the market but not cheap, particularly for a one-off job. However, you can often find old examples, with wooden bodies, in antique/junk shops around the country but the width of the cuts made by their 'irons' varies. some can be found with a range of inter-changeable irons but these at comparatively rare. I've included a couple of links to examples.

May be an idea, if you can get the frame/timber out, to take it to a friendly local joiner.

Cheers,
Cubist

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8HQ7ptpnxAuTQxqo6HAjwuTVUCUxFYXw-ejbrhAZo8K25gMM66UwCb3mJSbhcuo5bWJi8iNEUuzLbj9rRHi2ueSYn_a8R6-pcbrGhrsOrfsMLv18oe-ZZ4LRop88kQ3V-QkAXBbMjkFgF0P0ADWvTBFLxyr5WDxrxUlIBZKyoO4Lyto8ApWOhpIgIGJvC4lgl8bjqeg&u=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&rlid=52f586f53c991515cf77e5f33e41a7c0&ntb=1

https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8vXSPmexaDGt5S5X-08RehjVUCUyvvsuUqrTjxYQg5sAyZctUCtkwWKbgqzxdPT-SdrhZjWr2Ea_CFI6k78goQrdq_SNKNS_F1tCfVzsvjv0lBRAmze6d4zcST2j34oYoVk9gZgHAtPtCLmy1K2nJU73bwJ2klhpME2Hm169iTUyIJ-E18Gxa4g_X3s6lvoKYrMnXkg&u=aHR0cHMlM2ElMmYlMmZ3d3cubWFub21hbm8uY28udWslMmZvdGhlci13b29kd29ya2luZy10b29scy0xMDY0JTNmbW9kZWxfaWQlM2Q1NjY2NTM1OCUyNnJlZmVyZXJfaWQlM2Q2OTE2NzUlMjZtc2Nsa2lkJTNkYjQ5OWZiZDE2YjE5MTZjODEzZTA5OGQ3NjljMTk0YTglMjZ1dG1fc291cmNlJTNkYmluZyUyNnV0bV9tZWRpdW0lM2RjcGMlMjZ1dG1fY2FtcGFpZ24lM2RCaW5nJTI1MjBTaG9wcGluZ19DUENfR0JfQjJDX3Rlc3QlMjUyMFRvcCUyNTIwUHJvZHVjdHMlMjUyMC0lMjUyMHBvb2wlMjUyMGNvbnRyb2wlMjZ1dG1fdGVybSUzZDQ1NzYxNjc0MTUzMDAzNTYlMjZ1dG1fY29udGVudCUzZEElMjUyMC0lMjUyMERlc2t0b3A&rlid=b499fbd16b1916c813e098d769c194a8&ntb=1&ntb=1

 

[AnalogKid]

Thank you for the replies
The 'local' joiner' option is likely the simplest if I want a sharp clean 'step down' from 7mm width to 6mm width
And I always have the option of tapering with a handplane as well.

Thank you again

PS: I never knew about rebate planes!!

 

[Feltwell]

You have a further option to take the groove in the sash frame out to 7mm with a router. I've done something similar, taken a damaged 8mm groove out to 10mm to then fit a U-channel into it to bring it back to 8mm.

I've done a couple of threads on sash restorations:-

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/sash-windows-repair-dont-replace.16963/

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/original-windows-repair-dont-replace.16118/#p219935

I reckon you could cut your step into the bead though very carefully on a bench circular saw - using the fence and with the blade only protruding slightly above the table. Or - use a router table, with the bead laid on it's side, passed carefully over a router that's only just protuding beyond the table, against a fence.

 

[Feltwell]

Another option for you - ask Reddiseal how wide the bottom of this bead is - you might be able to use it without the channel.

https://www.reddiseals.com/product/reddiclip-parting-bead-with-channel/

 

[eezageeza]

+one for Feltwell's advice - the table saw option is doable, but a bit dicey - i suspect the health and safety dogs would not be happy - but I'd be perfectly relaxed doing it on a router table.

Neither option answers your 'hand tool' question of course, but there's probably an amateur woodworker in your neighbourhood who'd have the gear to do it for you (its literally a few minutes work) or its a tea break job for a local joinery shop.

 

[a twig]

Ditto what Feltwell said, there are all sorts of lovely router cutters by Trend that will allow you to do what you are after in conjunction with a palm router
Here - https://trenddirectuk.com/router-cutters/professional-router-cutters/recessing-seals.html

 

[Feltwell]

+one for Feltwell's advice - the table saw option is doable, but a bit dicey - i suspect the health and safety dogs would not be happy - but I'd be perfectly relaxed doing it on a router table.

Yeah, I'd prefer to do it on a router table! But a table saw in conjunction with push sticks would be OK, the stick keeping hands well away from the blade as ever of course.

Table saws are never the best for health & safety I think, I always treat them with extreme caution. A bit like chainsaws - the accidents are rarely minor.......

 

[Feltwell]

Ditto what Feltwell said, there are all sorts of lovely router cutters by Trend that will allow you to do what you are after in conjunction with a palm router
Here - https://trenddirectuk.com/router-cutters/professional-router-cutters/recessing-seals.html

I think you can just do it with a straight cutter to be honest - either widening the groove to 7mm in-situ, in which case a palm router is great, though at the top and bottom you'll need to finish it off with a chisel. Or machine the bead on a table router.

One of my table saws has a mount built in to the saw bed to mount a palm router upside down underneath, making it a table router - works a treat.

 

[AnalogKid]

You have a further option to take the groove in the sash frame out to 7mm with a router. I've done something similar, taken a damaged 8mm groove out to 10mm to then fit a U-channel into it to bring it back to 8mm.

I've done a couple of threads on sash restorations:-

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/sash-windows-repair-dont-replace.16963/

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/original-windows-repair-dont-replace.16118/#p219935

I reckon you could cut your step into the bead though very carefully on a bench circular saw - using the fence and with the blade only protruding slightly above the table. Or - use a router table, with the bead laid on it's side, passed carefully over a router that's only just protuding beyond the table, against a fence.

You have a further option to take the groove in the sash frame out to 7mm with a router. I've done something similar, taken a damaged 8mm groove out to 10mm to then fit a U-channel into it to bring it back to 8mm.

I've done a couple of threads on sash restorations:-

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/sash-windows-repair-dont-replace.16963/

https://www.periodproperty.co.uk/forum/threads/original-windows-repair-dont-replace.16118/#p219935

I reckon you could cut your step into the bead though very carefully on a bench circular saw - using the fence and with the blade only protruding slightly above the table. Or - use a router table, with the bead laid on it's side, passed carefully over a router that's only just protuding beyond the table, against a fence.

Feltwell.
Thank you - I read the entire thread last night - What an incredible resource

 

[AnalogKid]

Another option for you - ask Reddiseal how wide the bottom of this bead is - you might be able to use it without the channel.

https://www.reddiseals.com/product/reddiclip-parting-bead-with-channel/

Thats worth a look - thank you

 

[AnalogKid]

I do have a hand router, but not a table router or table saw.

Further thought and the following options might work

1) Mark it up with a Mortice Gauge
2) Use a sharp Stanley knife protruding by just the 1 depth mm I need to remove and cut along the mortice line
3) and then make 50 or so cuts at 1mm depth along the bead
3) Then run a chisel up

Crude - but it should work

Option 2
1) Mark up with a Mortice Gauge
2) Run a stanley knife at 1mm depth up the mortice gauge line
3) Then take to the wood with 60 Grit Sandpaper to remove 1mm depth

It wont produce a sharp 'step, rebate' , but should do the job

Option 3 (borrowing on the router table idea)
Create a Jig

1. Obtain an off cut of straight flat wood at B&Q - about 6mm thick and 1.2M (ie length of longest bead) Long and 3-4 inches wide)
2. use a 5mm router bit to create a hole/up the middle of the wood and through the wood
3. Then set the router to protrude 1mm through the hole in the wood

Clamp the bead to the wood (ie alignment is everything here) - and use the wood to guide the router to cut a 5mm rebate in the bead

 

[Feltwell]

Not quite sure what you mean on option 3, but it would be easy to make a very crude router table - an offcut of floorboard or similar with a hole drilled through it, so long as you can find a way to fix your router upside down beneath it, with a straight router bit poking up through the hole. Mount it securely in a Workmate or similar with your router bit sticking up through the hole by 1mm. Nail a strip of timber on as a guide fence and Bob's your uncle. Use with care and keep fingers well out of the way, push sticks are your friend!

Oh, and make sure you wear goggles. Router bits spin very fast indeed, I have had one break up one time, afterwards I was picking out bits that were embedded in the garage walls. Eye protection is a must!

 

[Feltwell]

Feltwell.
Thank you - I read the entire thread last night

I bet you slept well afterwards!

 

[AnalogKid]

Not exactly - it put too many ideas into my mind - so now building up a list of items to get from Mighton and my wife is now wondering when (ever) the sash rear sash windows will be put back in

My bad drawing for creating a rebate step with the hand router....rather than 'push' the parting bead, the parting bead is g-clamped or lightly nailed/pinned to the underside of the large piece of wood (Feltwell--a
thin floor board would be perfect as you mentioned)

The 'Hole Through wood' has been pre-cut with a router

The Router bit is set to protrude approx 1mm, and the router is guided along the left edge of the large piece of wood, with a 5mm bit, a get a 5mm wide cut and 1mm depth in the parting bead.

Feltwell - in essence, and upside down version of what you stated - but the 'router moves' rather than the bead (safer for the fingers)

 

[Feltwell]

Yes, you could do it that way. Shame you don't live closer, I'd say pop round, we'd have that done in 10 minutes!

Fingers and routers, if doing it with the router the way up I suggested, the key if you're nervous is to sacrifice the first and last couple of inches of the bead and not machine them - then you can always keep your fingers a few inches away from the cutter. Or not sacrifice them but only do them with a shaped push stick, so if anything slips it's the push stick that cops it, fingers are well out of the way.

I've always got the upmost respect for sharp spinning things! So many bench joiners that I've met do not have a full quota of fingers, it's scary.

Do compare Mightons and Reddiseals, I've used both, prices and range do vary quite a bit.

 

[AnalogKid]

Thank you for extending the offer - What a great community!

 

[CliffordPope]

Mightn't it be easier just to make the board in two pieces - one cut square, the other with a step, so that when attached together the result is a grove of the desired width?
Mine all seem to be in two pieces anyway - either made that way originally, or perhaps have split over the years.

 

[AnalogKid]

It turned out to be 'easier' than I thought. As with all things, once the materials have been ordered and are in hand, different solutions come to mind.

I ended up sandwiching the bead between two 18mmm thick pieces of melamine board (from the local B&Q off cuts heap) off-cuts

I left about 10mm of the bead protruding, and set the router to balance on the top surface of the melamine,
This meant the melamine had to be clamped at 3-4 places to ensure it was squeezed hard against the bead along its full length (as the height of the melamine controlled the depth of the cut)

The depth was 1mm

The routers 'guide' run along the protruding edge of the bead, with a 6mm straight bit

It worked well (especially as each bead was half length, as they were brushed draught beads, that were being reversed at the meeting rail

Some beads were a perfect fit, and due to the varying width of the parting bead groove, other beads had a coat of paint applied to add a bit of thickness
(There are two beads, cut in half, so 4 pieces)