Please help with sprayfoam decision

[Six]

So, we've found a house we love, it's granite and all walls, basement ceiling and roof have been sprayed with insulating sprayfoam in 2018. I think we need to walk away, but the house ticks all the other boxes, so I just wondered if anyone is wise enough to advise?

 

[malcolm]

One of the problems with spray foam is it is waterproof so the wood won't be able to evaporate water away. Another problem is that it is contains isocyanates which aren't always great for healthy living. It's fairly common for mortgage companies to insist spray foam is removed so there must be companies that remove it. Might be worth getting a quote.

 

[Six]

Thanks. No idea how they would remove it from all external walls, floor and roof. But, yes maybe worth a quote.

 

[Lacan07]

Banks / mortgage companies hate it so I assume you're paying cash?

 

[Six]

I haven't got that far yet. We do have quite a lot in cash, but would probably need a small mortgage. Was keen to know if anyone has any personal experience of having it in their house or having it removed?

 

[alexander]

if its in the roof it will be stuck to the roof tiles so your looking at replacing everything, I personally have removed it from a few roofs & not once did we manage to save the roof tiles, also had to replace a few rotted trusses/timbers, it is a very good insulator but it seals everything leaving the only place for any water ingress to go directly into the timbers , it just creates a lot of damage on removal as it sticks to everything making tiles ect unsalvageable

 

[Six]

Thanks for your reply. It has been in place for 7 years. Was wondering if this would be long enough for significant damage? Also, if installing a roof velux for ventilation and leaving the foam in situ would be a solution? It's also been installed in all walls and the ground floor (visible from the basement). Should I be concerned about these areas too, or not so much? It's lcynene, which I think isn't toxic.

 

[alexander]

that is the million pound question, it really depends on if there is any water getting in behind it , if so how much & how often, problem you have is wood can rot very quickly if continuously wet & not able to dry out, on the other hand wood can recover very quickly if able to dry out, because all this is unknown without removing the insulation is one of the reasons mortgage company's are refusing to mortgage property's with foam insulation installed, i have removed foam were there is very little rot & also removed it were there was major rot needing a lot of the wood being replaced there is no hard and fast answer, wood need to breathe if its sealed stopping it breathing it will rot
also if you cut through the foam to install a skylight window you will never be able to seal around the window 100% it will always leak, you really only have two choices leave it and hope for the best of spend thousands removing it.
good luck

 

[Six]

Have you removed it from walls? Is that even feasible?

 

[Kearn]

unmortgagable. Therefore basically also unsaleable. Let the vendors deal with this or walk.

It ‘can’ be removed, but only if you’re lucky, but usually you need to budget for the structures it’s attached to, to come away with it. New roof slates, new rafters, new joists…. It’s very invasive and a terrible thing.

 

[Flyfisher]

I'm with Kearn on this one and my instinct would be to walk away. Possibly even run.

But. If this really was the only thing preventing this from being a 'dream house' then I might consider a couple of things. First, establish if it is possible to get a mortgage (if necessary). Second, get a quote from a reputable builder (itself a whole different challenge!) for its removal plus all the things Kearn mentioned above that will likely be damaged and in need of repair, either by the foam itself or by its removal, add 20% to the quotation and then deduct that amount from the purchase price offer.

Then, if the seller refuses the offer price, walk away.

 

[Six]

Thanks all. The buyer has offered to have it removed prior to entry (with some assurances that we will buy!) or to reduce it by the cost of that work. So, just swithering on whether it would be best left in place until, for example, we were thinking of removing the roof? It will have been applied to sarking in the roof and it's a C listed building. Oh dear, I know it sounds bad, but if it can be removed... I've no idea how it will actually physically be removed from the walls though, presuming it was injected in through small boreholes.

 

[Six]

This is what the external is like.

 

[fernicarry]

I'd be wary of letting the seller do the work. If you agree missives and then realise its not done to your satisfaction then you may be stuck with it. You might be able to write something into the sale contract. There is usually a standard clause inserted about everything being handed over in working order with the buyer given a few weeks to claw back any costs incurred from the seller. That's intended for things like gas boilers etc. but this is more subjective given that you're unlikely to be able to remove every trace of the stuff. You'd have to ask your lawyer what is possible but if I was in your shoes and dead set on proceeding my preference would be for a really meaingful discount from the asking price. Seller is obviously aware this is a serious obstacle to achieving a sale so they might consider that.

Was it sprayed into the walls behind the laths? That'll be impossible to get out without removing all the plaster with risk to joinery, cornices etc.. On the plus side that gives you the opportunity to do IWI "properly".

Some spray foams are open cell so in theory still allow water vapour to migrate through them. In fact you are supposed to use open cell foam in roof structures but who knows what the cowboys back in 2018 did. Where are you? East coast I guess so less wind driven rain than here in the west. You might get away with it long term but if you don't you're going to have some serious disruption and expense getting it sorted so that should be priced into its current value.

 

[Kearn]

Thanks all. The buyer has offered to have it removed prior to entry (with some assurances that we will buy!) or to reduce it by the cost of that work. So, just swithering on whether it would be best left in place until, for example, we were thinking of removing the roof? It will have been applied to sarking in the roof and it's a C listed building. Oh dear, I know it sounds bad, but if it can be removed... I've no idea how it will actually physically be removed from the walls though, presuming it was injected in through small boreholes.

Nobody knows how much damage it will do on removal, until it is removed.

It is therefore impossible to agree a reduction price, unless you go for the worse case scenario of having to replace and make good all surfaces it has been attached to. This becomes a large amount of work due to all the ancillary repairs nearby. You will also want to be the person generating this figure from quotes for all the associated trades required. That will take a lot of your time and effort, but is essential if you wish to reach a meaningful reduction figure. The sellers will not like the figure though.

I wouldn’t trust the sellers to have a go at it. It won’t be done adequately, just enough to try and convince you it’s ok. They will cause damage in the process, the unknown is how much damage. They will be surprised by it during the process, and it will add lots of time onto the process as it’s not a one man job, there will be multiple trades required for repairs , replacements and making good. These folks won’t be available immediately if they’re worth employing, so if it’s quick it won’t be high quality workmanship. And as you say it’s C listed, permissions will also be required. This will be a slow process if done right, so expect a major delay. The sellers will also not be prepared for this. Any chain will likely fall Apart.

I certainly wouldn’t agree anything committing to buy, that is entirely dependent on the work being done adequately and completely.

They don’t have to do this work to enable you to buy the house, they have to do this work to enable them to sell the house. Full stop. It’s their issue, which means the power is all yours.

 

[Six]

Thanks. Yes, we're East coast. It sounds like quite a gargantuan task. The process of disassembling all the internal wall coverings in what's quite a large house. Oof. Am feeling defeated. If it were just the roof, I think we'd just deal with it.

 

[Six]

Have been questioning whether we could leave it in the walls and just remove it from the roof. Presumably the walls can breathe to the outside? But then will be sealed to the inside with something that's not breathable. Ah. I know the answer.

 

[lizziecupcakes]

I would request the seller pay at least half to have it removed, hopefully before the bank is involved. Most people won’t be able to buy this with a mortgage

 

[Lacan07]

Have been questioning whether we could leave it in the walls and just remove it from the roof. Presumably the walls can breathe to the outside? But then will be sealed to the inside with something that's not breathable. Ah. I know the answer.

How has it been injected into the walls? I wouldn't have thought that was such an issue.

 

[Six]

I think it's just been injected through small boreholes. I'm trying to gauge whether this is a big problem or not. The issue seems to be that water can gather beside the stone and erode it and let mould build up as the foam doesn't allow airflow and isn't breathable.