Potential period cottage purchase, high levels of damp found at survey - HELP

[houseplant]

Hello!
I found this helpful forum when doing some research so thought I'd try posting myself. My husband and I are trying to buy our first home, found one we liked, been through many stages and received L2 survey indicating a few issues, the major one being damp. We've lived in several rentals and most had some level of damp due to poor maintenance by landlord/other tenants and were hoping to finally get away from this as it can be hell to manage when its bad, as I'm sure many will know. We decided to have a damp survey done, I will post screenshots of the readings and quotes we were given for recommended work.

We had a nasty shock thinking we may be out a few thousand, 10,000 at worst - the actual quote is more than 5 times that with VAT. We are asking retention (thought we'd try our luck) and the full amount is pretty much out of the question. They've so far offered about 1/5 of the price of said quote, we may be able to negotiate but unsure at the moment how this will go.

My question is has anyone had similar experience? Are all of these works necessary/likely to help in the long run? Mainly the 2 most expensive, as we could manage a few fans being put in no issue. I've read a post about internal tanking being ... a bit hit and miss shall we say, so I am not sure if it is worth fighting for the work to be done, or if any/either may not benefit at all. As I said we do have experience managing damp but never in a period property so just wanting some advice before we take this on and potentially regret either having a mouldy house forever or walking away from a good place (it is lovely!!) based on one thing.

Sorry this is quite long, if anything is missing or unclear please ask and I will do my best to answer!
Thanks so much in advance for ANY help

 

[Cubist]

Hello and welcome,

Some details of the house; its structure and materials together with some understanding of the site it stands on would be very helpful. Without these the best any of us may be able to do would be the contribution of generic comments that could be misleading. Also, do you happen to know what equipment the surveyor used to measure/assess the observed damp?

Cheers for now.

 

[houseplant]

From the survey it is made of stone, it is a terraced 2 bedroom and 1 bathroom, we were told built ~1850. Small patio back garden, nothing at the front and up a large hill so not near any water sources, not overlooked by trees etc. There are timber beams in the kitchen and attic area which have been treated for wood beetles in the past, still effective from what we have been told. Only know of them using a digital meter on the walls which shows whatever readings, other than that I am not sure what was used (initially by general surveyor then followed up by damp specialist) - hope any of that is useful!

 

[stuart45]

It's not an independent survey. His company is looking to do the work.

 

[Itchinfilth]

Hello,

Is there no mention of tackling any causes of damp such as possible points of entry, guttering, ground levels, drainage, type of pointing / render used?

In simple terms, the solutions provided would be like putting a marigold on wet hands and expecting them to dry.

 

[houseplant]

Hello,

Is there no mention of tackling any causes of damp such as possible points of entry, guttering, ground levels, drainage, type of pointing / render used?

In simple terms, the solutions provided would be like putting a marigold on wet hands and expecting them to dry.

This is what I am worried about!

 

[Cubist]

I would be deeply suspicious of both the measures/readings reported (most/all of the portable kit used is very imprecise) and the proposed remediation approaches. Tanking is a method usually promoted for cellars and basements in which some/all of the walls are buried. It was/is frequently promoted as a solution for external walls but this often leads to moisture being trapped in the brick/stone work which allows rising damp to reach new heights. Ventilation to manage domestically generated moisture arising from cooking, bathing etc. can be useful but the proposed equipment may be overkill - others here with direct experience of the kit proposed my be able to advise on its efficacy but simpler/less expensive equipment would be very capable. Echoing @stuart45 the guys who performed that survey were looking to curry some valuable business.

 

[paulc]

View attachment 17103

At 90% and higher moisture readings, you would see water running down the walls. So I think those readings can be dismissed as wildly inaccurate.
As for the claim that the RH must be lower than 50% to prevent the range of issues mention, I have data that disproves that. Relative humidity in most of the rooms here vary between 50% and 70% depending on the time of year. Kitchen & bathroom will hit 75% on occasions and there is some condensation in those areas, but the rest of the house doesn't show any sign - Have temperature/humidity sensors dotted around the house, and the data is logged in a huge database..
I'd also take exception to the proposed render being able to cut heat losses by (up to) 80%. An uninsulated property will lose 30-35% of the heat through walls. Insulation will cut this loss by 10-20%, well short of the magical 80% being claimed. Surprised they didn't tell you that fibreglass loft insulation is a major cause of respiratory problems, only has a life span of 5-10 years, and spray foam insulation will cure your heat loss.

About the only "recommendation" that has any value is ventilation. But a dMEV fan running 24/7 will cost way more than £5 per year to run once you take in to account heating costs. Instead, install a MHRV system that will recover heat from the outgoing air and warm the air being pumped back in. A bit more expensive than a PIV/dMEV system.

 

[stuart45]

They haven't priced to render, only repair the render where needed, and then paint it with Secoflex. Scaffolding is extra. Without being on site, it's difficult to give really accurate advice, but in my experience, small Victorian terraced houses are usually relatively simple to cure, or manage any damp issues. People often get sucked in to these types of work when they first move in, especially if they got a generous discount on the price.

 

[Sikes]

My house had RH levels of around 75 to 85% when I moved in. Fixed obvious leaks, high external ground levels etc. I removed internal cement and gypsum plaster (ie tanking) on the walls and had it lime plastered. Not cheap but cheaper and more effective than the suggested solutions.

 

[a twig]

A

Thread 'I’ve just bought an old house and it’s damp, help!'

Dec 10, 2022

So, many people have suggested over the years this should just be called the “old damp house forum”

So I thought I should start a basic guide to tackling damp in a period property that hopefully the learned members of this parish can add to, and we can then point others to in the future:

Broadly, no matter your house, the rules are the same. As a rule of thumb steps 1 & 2 are the cause of the majority of damp issues.

After carrying out repairs and improvements it is important to pause and wait - the feedback loop is slow as this stuff takes a long time to dry, there are various theories...

• a twig
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Projects

• 

This thread is a useful high level primer

 

[houseplant]

At 90% and higher moisture readings, you would see water running down the walls. So I think those readings can be dismissed as wildly inaccurate.
As for the claim that the RH must be lower than 50% to prevent the range of issues mention, I have data that disproves that. Relative humidity in most of the rooms here vary between 50% and 70% depending on the time of year. Kitchen & bathroom will hit 75% on occasions and there is some condensation in those areas, but the rest of the house doesn't show any sign - Have temperature/humidity sensors dotted around the house, and the data is logged in a huge database..
I'd also take exception to the proposed render being able to cut heat losses by (up to) 80%. An uninsulated property will lose 30-35% of the heat through walls. Insulation will cut this loss by 10-20%, well short of the magical 80% being claimed. Surprised they didn't tell you that fibreglass loft insulation is a major cause of respiratory problems, only has a life span of 5-10 years, and spray foam insulation will cure your heat loss.

About the only "recommendation" that has any value is ventilation. But a dMEV fan running 24/7 will cost way more than £5 per year to run once you take in to account heating costs. Instead, install a MHRV system that will recover heat from the outgoing air and warm the air being pumped back in. A bit more expensive than a PIV/dMEV system.

Interesting! This is very helpful info, thank you!

 

[houseplant]

A

Thread 'I’ve just bought an old house and it’s damp, help!'

Dec 10, 2022

So, many people have suggested over the years this should just be called the “old damp house forum”

So I thought I should start a basic guide to tackling damp in a period property that hopefully the learned members of this parish can add to, and we can then point others to in the future:

Broadly, no matter your house, the rules are the same. As a rule of thumb steps 1 & 2 are the cause of the majority of damp issues.

After carrying out repairs and improvements it is important to pause and wait - the feedback loop is slow as this stuff takes a long time to dry, there are various theories...

• a twig
• Replies: 2
• Forum: Projects

• 

This thread is a useful high level primer

Oh wow this looks very informative, thanks!

 

[a twig]

Give the report says that the RH is higher upstairs than downstairs that more usually points to failed rainwater goods, with gutters and downpipes blocked so water is overflowing and running down the exterior of the walls so I’d be starting there personally (not had much rain recently but going outside with a brolly when it does rain and see where all the water off the roof goes is usually invaluable)

 

[Kearn]

What you have is an idiot, incompetent ‘surveyor’ who shouldn’t be allowed to operate and is breaking many of the rules and codes of practice. The meter is a tool for nothing except timber. It’s meaningless. Utterly.
Tanking is also absolute snake oil. It’s detrimental and damaging to an old building a not the answer to any damp issues.

Be done with this idiot, pay them nothing that you still need to. Sadly the route of recourse with RICS is largely a non existent rabbit hole.

The good news, this is likely a very easy fix, find the source of water ingress, if indeed there is and fix the issues. Wait. Be patient and the fabric will dry out. Remove any modern inappropriate materials and let the building function as designed.

There is much reading out there and here, but you’ll need a grasp of the basics of old buildings if you’re going to take one on.

 

[houseplant]

What you have is an idiot, incompetent ‘surveyor’ who shouldn’t be allowed to operate and is breaking many of the rules and codes of practice. The meter is a tool for nothing except timber. It’s meaningless. Utterly.
Tanking is also absolute snake oil. It’s detrimental and damaging to an old building a not the answer to any damp issues.

Be done with this idiot, pay them nothing that you still need to. Sadly the route of recourse with RICS is largely a non existent rabbit hole.

The good news, this is likely a very easy fix, find the source of water ingress, if indeed there is and fix the issues. Wait. Be patient and the fabric will dry out. Remove any modern inappropriate materials and let the building function as designed.

There is much reading out there and here, but you’ll need a grasp of the basics of old buildings if you’re going to take one on.

This seems to be the consensus which is why I didn't want to commit, or risk giving up a property based on these findings (which I'm now suspicious of anyway). Thankfully we don't owe them anything so are free to walk away and not take on the work being done. Thank you!

 

[paulc]

Be done with this idiot, pay them nothing that you still need to. Sadly the route of recourse with RICS is largely a non existent rabbit hole.

Was it a proper, qualified RICS surveyor or just a PCA accredited surveyor salesman ?
The latter has minimal training, and the bulk of that is in sales. Honesty, integrity, and genuine knowledge are not in the training syllabus.

 

[Lacan07]

Hello!
I found this helpful forum when doing some research so thought I'd try posting myself. My husband and I are trying to buy our first home, found one we liked, been through many stages and received L2 survey indicating a few issues, the major one being damp. We've lived in several rentals and most had some level of damp due to poor maintenance by landlord/other tenants and were hoping to finally get away from this as it can be hell to manage when its bad, as I'm sure many will know. We decided to have a damp survey done, I will post screenshots of the readings and quotes we were given for recommended work.

We had a nasty shock thinking we may be out a few thousand, 10,000 at worst - the actual quote is more than 5 times that with VAT. We are asking retention (thought we'd try our luck) and the full amount is pretty much out of the question. They've so far offered about 1/5 of the price of said quote, we may be able to negotiate but unsure at the moment how this will go.

My question is has anyone had similar experience? Are all of these works necessary/likely to help in the long run? Mainly the 2 most expensive, as we could manage a few fans being put in no issue. I've read a post about internal tanking being ... a bit hit and miss shall we say, so I am not sure if it is worth fighting for the work to be done, or if any/either may not benefit at all. As I said we do have experience managing damp but never in a period property so just wanting some advice before we take this on and potentially regret either having a mouldy house forever or walking away from a good place (it is lovely!!) based on one thing.

Sorry this is quite long, if anything is missing or unclear please ask and I will do my best to answer!
Thanks so much in advance for ANY help

View attachment 17103

View attachment 17104

View attachment 17105

View attachment 17106

You've got to admire the bare faced cheek of these people haven't you? Almost 50K for what is essentially the equivalent of popping down to Wickes to buy a pot of bitumen paint and slobbering it all over your walls. Why bother hacking the plaster off, just paint over it.

Anyone want to guess why they've specified multiple extractor fans all over the house? It's because they know the tanking solution they've specified isn't a fix at all but just a containment measure that will inevitably fail in 3 to 5 years time. The fans will improve the humidity levels somewhat giving the client the impression the problem is solved whilst the walls remain damp and cold, its nothing more than covering their a***holes.

The right thing to do is to bin these clowns off and tackle the actual causes of the damp. The worst case scenario is rising damp but thats very rare. Most likely causes could be anything from faulty guttering, leaky sewers, high external ground or screed floors to impenetrable concrete render and gypsum plaster.

 

[mardinor]

All the expensive stuff will make it worse. The cheap stuff (ventilation) will probably help and be worth it, but for condensation (not damp). That is most likely caused by double-glazing and draught-proofing!

If it were me I would look at the house for any actual symptoms of problems (leaking roof, leaking gutter, damp patches, moss/patches on walls, blown plaster, etc, musty smells). These are often easy to fix, and if hard likely to show themselves inside. Then I would use the fraudulent survey to negotiate a big discount and do nothing once in except open the windows, check the gutters when it rains and wait...If you get mould, buy £5 RH meters and probably the PIV they mention. That's it.

All-in-all this could be a great ruse to save £10K off the asking price. But you'll likely need to give it back when you try to sell and the next person instructs an eejit 'surveyor'.