Quest for lower heating cost, Smart thermostats / TRV's (HIVE)

[RBailey]

Hi All,

I thought I would share some experience of my recent change to a “smart” central heating controller and the quest for lower energy bills.
We have a large house, consisting of three cottages and a barn knocked together, one boiler down one end, 15 radiators and the thermal insulation of a typical stone on dirt period property, i.e. none.
I have therefore opted to fit a HIVE system (British gas / Centrica) but there are other systems out there.

The HIVE system (for heating) is a two phase system.

Part 1 – Thermostat replacement.
This replaces your traditional thermostat or thermostat / timer combo for both your central heating and gas hot water (but not electric immersion heater).
It is a simple plug and play wiring replacement for your thermostat and the controller temperature sensor is a wireless unit that you can put anywhere.
There is also a sophisticated app for your phone to control the schedules of times and temperatures.
This is good, and a simple upgrade, but it still only controls ALL of your heating on/off/temperature. The key being, all, if you switch heat on the whole house heats up.

Part 2 – Smart TRV (Thermostatic Radiator Valves)
These are wireless controlled valves that fit in place of the inlet valve or traditional wax TRV.

The HIVE TRV’s sense the room temperature and you can individually open the valve and switch on the boiler.
This means that you can heat different rooms to different temperatures at will.
Via the app you can then set different rooms to run at different temperature and times.
For example, master bedroom heats up at adult bed time, the children’s rooms at their bed time and the study during the day, with the heating off (or set to 10C for the rest of the day.


Wireless
The system runs on a zigabee network so you need a box to link it into your wifi system. However, you can also get plug in zigabee signal boosters (from HIVE) so you can get a signal all over the house. This ability to boost / extend the signal was important to us due to the stone wall thickness.

Cost
The main controller, including fitting (which I thought would be difficult, but I now know is easy and was bodged anyway) was a fixed £250 from British gas. This was a lot cheaper than the Honeywell system I looked at.
The smart TRV’s are about £50 each which mounts up fast but none of the other systems are that cheap either. I also had to change all the valves as they were so old they were not physically compatible but they may also have been seized so not such a bad thing.

Problems
The early HIVE TRV’s got a very bad reputation, and the control side is still not that logical and a bit glitchy. The official support isn’t that great but the online support community is good.
I also think some users expect amazing results and moan when there room isn’t hot after 5 minutes of calling for heat. I am realistic to know I will never win the heat battle but I just hope to reduce the attrition rate.

Saving
HIVE do not guarantee any savings (some brands do) but I can not help but think that just heating the rooms I need has got to be a saving.

So far I am happy. A lot of control and just to have a warm study you do not need to heat the whole house is great.

Hope this is of interest or helps someone.

Cheers,
Richard B.

P.s. This is not sponsored, wish it was given the cost of the valves! I just thought I would share to prompt any discussion or questions.

 

[paulc]

Have contemplated getting "smart" TRVs for my radiators. Would only need six or seven, but even so, that is a sizable outlay although there are one or two cheaper models out there (think I've seen some at around £30). Aside from flat batteries, my main concern is communications - Do the TRVs signal back to the controller when they have reached temperature or is a thermostat required in each room ?

 

[RBailey]

Each smart TRV has its own thermostat built into it which it relays to the controller.
(Hive even has two stats in each TRV so it can do some math's to extrapolate the room temperature from the radiator temperature).

Be aware that some of the cheaper systems will only act as a semi-smart TRV and will not switch the boiler on and off.
If you want a fully customizable schedule you have to be able to switch the boiler on and off, otherwise you will need to run the boiler 24/7 so there is heat when the TRV asks for it.

I know that these systems are a chunk of cash but so is our gas bill :roll:

I "think" (so be warned it could be twaddle) that smart TRV / heating controls count as part of the tier 2 in the energy grant system that the government announced. If you spend on tier 1 (loft insulation etc.) then you can get equal cash grant for tier 2.

 

[paulc]

My home automation system switches the boiler on or off subject to heating schedule (temperature & time), and also for hot water. As long as the TRV can signal the state (either open or closed) or temperature, it is just a matter of editing a configuration script for the H.A. Don't need any real "smarts" in the TRV.

Having looked at this Green Home thing, I've come to the conclusion that it is little more than political spin that doesn't really help the majority. Boosting loft insulation levels isn't going to cost me much (less than £100), the other primary options have a payback of 20-100+ years. Certainly not going to allow any government "approved contractor" access to my control system - He probably wouldn't even know how to access the config files let alone be competent enough to make any changes.

 

[Feltwell]

Interesting, thanks for posting Richard. I'd dismissed them as "I don't need to switch heating on from an app on my phone" - but what you show there is it does a lot more, particularly the ability for each TRV to call for heat.

If you can find a way of fixing a teenage daughter who likes to have her bedroom TRV set on maximum (I was cold yesterday and I forgot...) whilst simultaneously leaving her bedroom window open (I was hot....) - when she has an attic room so lets lots of heat out of the house - that would be brilliant :roll:

Ohh yeah, and get a teenage son to open his bedroom blinds (BUT the light shines on my compute screen!) - honestly he is the Prince of Darkness.

 

[RBailey]

If you can find a way of fixing a teenage daughter who likes to have her bedroom TRV set on maximum (I was cold yesterday and I forgot...) whilst simultaneously leaving her bedroom window open (I was hot....) - when she has an attic room so lets lots of heat out of the house - that would be brilliant :roll:

If the TRV is manually overridden (which you can do easily on hive just by turning the top) it only "boosts" the temperature until the next scheduled change so it can't be changed for that long.
There is also the ability to give family members different levels of access to the app.

All our children's rooms on have automatic door closers fitted. Otherwise they "forget" and the cats get into their bedrooms but they are also good for heat control.

I also highly recommend a smart plug for the kids TV / PlayStation, "Alexa, kids TV off" works miracles! I can also time and lock internet access via the router software :twisted:

Ohh yeah, and get a teenage son to open his bedroom blinds (BUT the light shines on my compute screen!) - honestly he is the Prince of Darkness.

I think you can even get smart window blinds from Ikea :lol:

 

[a twig]

We have tried both Hive and Evohome across two properties. Hive is great for our rental as it allows us to schedule lighting etc while the place is empty, but at home we have the Honeywell evohome.

It's a similar set up but just does heating (no smart plugs etc) we chose Evohome because the "hub" has a touchscreen which can control everything, so it still keeps full functionality even when the internet is down, whereas the Hive will only continue to run whatever settings it was last sent from the app, you won't be able to adjust until your internet comes back up.

The Honeywell TRVs are a bit noisier than the Hive ones, so if you're a light sleeper you may want to set your schedules accordingly, but other than that it has been brilliant, to the extent that we are installing it into our new house as soon as we move in.

Bills dropped by ~£20 a month, and house generally a lot more pleasant/comfortable to live in. The Honeywell TRVs also has a feature that detects if you leave a door or window open and will shut off the rad until it is closed so you aren't heating the outside! Battery life has been great, over 18 months now in 2 AAs, and still 2/3 charge remaining.

 

[Athers1971]

A little late to the party, but given the energy price increases...

I've just reinstalled my TADO Radiator Thermostats in the 'new' old house; seven in total. I fitted the Wireless Receiver to the old Worcester Bosch boiler myself following TADO's instructions - if I can do it, anyone can!

After a couple of issues (sticking radiator valve pins on a couple of the old radiators) I can turn the radiators on just in the kids bedrooms, or in the bathroom, or any room independently come to that. Very handy, so we're not heating empty space.

Had four thermostats from the last house and purchased 3 more - bit of an investment, but happy to pay that so I know exactly what is being heated and when.

Works really well.

PS. Our Architect thinks we should 'upgrade' to a biomass boiler once we start the works connecting up the house to the stable (which has its own boiler currently).

 

[Me!]

If you can find a way of fixing a teenage daughter who likes to have her bedroom TRV set on maximum (I was cold yesterday and I forgot...) whilst simultaneously leaving her bedroom window open (I was hot....) - when she has an attic room so lets lots of heat out of the house - that would be brilliant :roll:

Yes, probably.
I've not tried that exactly, but I have got a zigbee door sensor that I have actually fitted to my front gate and linked to Alexa so that she now announces when the gate has been opened. So if you had a similar sensor on your daughter's window, and a smart TRV on her radiator, then yes it should definitely be possible to automatically turn her radiator off whenever the window is open.

I used one of these - contact sensors.

 

[Cubist]

Its mind boggling..... the relentless invasion of tech and putative AI into our homes seems, to me, to be gathering pace, martialled by the faceless entities known as Siri and Alexa and others similar - the latter day ghosts in all our machines. I despair; where have the days gone when a slamming door was all we needed to let us know a daughter had gone out, when was the draught not enough to tell us a window had been left open or a strange light in the kitchen sufficient to tell us someone had left the fridge door open? Pretty soon, I expect, Alexa will begin chastising us for our infractions and begin nagging our off-spring about switching the lights off or maybe automatically rationing the kids broadband usage - ok so there are some upsides. All this aside, the most worrying features afforded by such systems is that of remote monitoring. Yes, it may be good for the 'house' to warn if someone strange comes to the door or a neighbours pooch arrives to make a deposit on our lawn but..... I for one would not be grateful to learn that my late night fridge raids or the liberties I take concerning design issues, that would otherwise be the province of the First Lady, were reported, with picture evidence, to her!

Is it not enough that our cars now tell us when we are speeding, that we should have turned left a hundred yards back, that the oils low or the tyres lack pressure. I'm sick of the nagging, I'm exhausted by the passive conditioning of my mind and its decision making. We need to halt this encroachment, this invasion into our liberties. We need to shake the Apple trees and dam the Amazon river and take back our decision making and our right to make pigs ears of it.

Ok, rant over, for now, I've got things to do now its stopped raining.

Cubist (aka LUDDITE)

 

[Athers1971]

Yes, probably.
I've not tried that exactly, but I have got a zigbee door sensor that I have actually fitted to my front gate and linked to Alexa so that she now announces when the gate has been opened. So if you had a similar sensor on your daughter's window, and a smart TRV on her radiator, then yes it should definitely be possible to automatically turn her radiator off whenever the window is open.

I used one of these - contact sensors.

The newer version of the TADO radiator thermostats allow you to set a child lock via the App so that they can’t alter them manually!

 

[RBailey]

Alexa

Got 10 (I may have a problem)

a slamming door was all we needed to let us know a daughter had gone out

Ring alarm does that

nagging our off-spring

Alex shouts at least three reminders a day

switching the lights off

On PIR sensors

automatically rationing the kids broadband usage

Done by the router

and not forgetting the autmatic log burner

Log burner automation

Hi All, Firstly I can't claim any credit for this one, the BIL is an HVAC /control engineer and its his hard work. Recently installed automatic air control (and log addition warning and online temperature monitoring) for our log burner that I thought I would share. (This is the view under the...

www.periodproperty.co.uk

or the automatic kitchen fan

Kitchen extractor automation

Hi All, Just though i would share another approach to "automation". In the never ending fight against moisture when I installed our cooker extractor hood I wired it up to a microwave motion sensor so anytime you went near the cooker the extractor switched on. (Automation was necessary to avoid...

www.periodproperty.co.uk

and the Robot Vacuum cleaner

I'm sick of the nagging,

I'm doomed aren't I

 

[Cubist]

Got 10 (I may have a problem)


Ring alarm does that


Alex shouts at least three reminders a day


On PIR sensors


Done by the router

and not forgetting the autmatic log burner

Log burner automation

Hi All, Firstly I can't claim any credit for this one, the BIL is an HVAC /control engineer and its his hard work. Recently installed automatic air control (and log addition warning and online temperature monitoring) for our log burner that I thought I would share. (This is the view under the...

www.periodproperty.co.uk

or the automatic kitchen fan

Kitchen extractor automation

Hi All, Just though i would share another approach to "automation". In the never ending fight against moisture when I installed our cooker extractor hood I wired it up to a microwave motion sensor so anytime you went near the cooker the extractor switched on. (Automation was necessary to avoid...

www.periodproperty.co.uk

and the Robot Vacuum cleaner


I'm doomed aren't I

It's all right, I've been out and got my shed-time fix so I've mellowed out a bit. I'm keeping the soap-box though but will not be trecking off to Hyde Park Corner to vent my spleen. Nor will I be resorting to Twitter now that Musks taken over.

That said, my crusade against the intellect sucking vampires from the Metaverse will continue unabated!

And yes, as Private Frazer would put it,"You're Doomed!'

Other than that, have a nice day.

 

[jmo]

Hi just wondering if any Hive TRV users are still happy with them?

Had the boiler checked in house I've just moved into and it's been condemned as there was a hole in the combustion chamber, probable carbon monoxide leaks and all that. I might take the opportunity to have the Hive system fitted as I was going to experiment with heating the house on low constantly, per Pete Ward's advice in his book, and thought a smart system might help with that. House currently has no room thermostat, only some TRVs on the rads.

Also having the wood burner checked soon (no HETAS cert), but the person coming round reckons it's a European brand not sold in the country and can promise nothing about a successful service. Not looking good on the heating front for me atm!

 

[a twig]

Yep - still happy. Out of the two systems I’ve used I’ve preferred the Evohome system though but it is a lot more spendy.

A friend has said good things about Tado but no direct experience here

 

[jmo]

Yep - still happy. Out of the two systems I’ve used I’ve preferred the Evohome system though but it is a lot more spendy.

A friend has said good things about Tado but no direct experience here

Thanks, I've asked about Hive because British Gas checked the boiler and are sending someone to quote a replacement, and I understand from their website they do Hive. Good to know about alternatives though, so I'll keep researching

 

[a twig]

@jmo - just noticed, if you take a look at the Screwfix black Friday deals there are some serious reductions on Hive and tado at present. Would be cheaper to buy it yourself, and then get it installed if you aren't confident DIYing, rather than buy through BG.

 

[Athers1971]

@jmo - just noticed, if you take a look at the Screwfix black Friday deals there are some serious reductions on Hive and tado at present. Would be cheaper to buy it yourself, and then get it installed if you aren't confident DIYing, rather than buy through BG.

I've installed the TADO wireless receiver (the 'gubbins' that is wired to the boiler) to two different boilers in two different houses and I have zero competence with anything involving electrical wiring. However the TADO system (German) has super clear instructions for all sorts of makes and models of boiler and I can vouch for them having used them into houses now. Hardest bit is installing the TRVs to the radiators, ours have been here a long time and some of the valve pins were stuck etc and needed fettling with, but all good now. Given the current 'climate' it's reassuring that we are only heating the particular rooms we are using and not wasting energy. I've got Pete's book, but not read it yet, so I'm still at the stage where I only heat the room we using!

 

[jmo]

@jmo - just noticed, if you take a look at the Screwfix black Friday deals there are some serious reductions on Hive and tado at present. Would be cheaper to buy it yourself, and then get it installed if you aren't confident DIYing, rather than buy through BG.

oo, ta, I'll check it out

 

[RBailey]

Hi just wondering if any Hive TRV users are still happy with them?

Yes, we have Hive TRV's and they are okay. They were a bit fiddly and panful at first but now I understand them properly they no issues.

Also just had to deal with the annual boiler re-start and the random flat batteries.

I have heard good things about Tado and Evohome.

One of the key features is the smart TRV's need to be able to call for heat (i.e. switch on the boiler) and a lot of the very simple / cheap WiFi TRV's don't, but EVO does and I think Tado does.

I also liked the plug in ZigBit extenders that Hive do which appealed with stone walls.

Cheers,
Richard B.