Re-build front wall and foundations?

[jansmith]

Hi all. Considering buying a particular Grade 2 listed property. The house seems to be pretty much falling down at the front, and a host of other problems. Can you please advise cost and process to re-build the front wall and underpin? Then there is re-building the worse of the two chimneys and a long list, but the biggest is the front wall. Thanks!

 

[phillc]

Why does it need rebuilding?

 

[jansmith]

Why does it need rebuilding?

It's in a dangerous state.

 

[phillc]

Can you expand - how so?

The right hand end looks square. I possibly see a slight bulge to the left where the brickwork changes.

No obvious cracks, roof line looks level.

Your first question will be: Is there a compelling reason to knock it down and rebuild? If there isn't, your local heritage officer is extremely unlikely to allow it and will favour repair.

So start with "how much will the expert reports be to demonstrate that the only option is demolition and rebuild?" and work from there.

 

[jansmith]

Can you expand - how so?

The right hand end looks square. I possibly see a slight bulge to the left where the brickwork changes.

No obvious cracks, roof line looks level.

Your first question will be: Is there a compelling reason to knock it down and rebuild? If there isn't, your local heritage officer is extremely unlikely to allow it and will favour repair.

So start with "how much will the expert reports be to demonstrate that the only option is demolition and rebuild?" and work from there.

The wall is so bulged that there's nearly an entire brick's width of descrepency 3/4 up the wall along the entire front. Picture clearly does not show it. Trust me - it is incredibly unstable. As it's Grade 2 Listed, the question is how to take the wall out and re-build it, and the costs. We're NOT intending to buy it, knock down and re-build.

 

[phillc]

Cool. Thanks. Yeah, it does look a bit bulgy ...

Is it still moving - as I said, no obvious signs unless it has been very recently pointed and the roof realigned?

What makes you think underpinning is necessary?

 

[jansmith]

Cool. Thanks. Yeah, it does look a bit bulgy ...

Is it still moving - as I said, no obvious signs unless it has been very recently pointed and the roof realigned?

What makes you think underpinning is necessary?

I appreciate you trying to get details, but you just have to trust me on this - it is falling down. The worst I have ever seen.

 

[phillc]

What I am trying to understand is why the wall is bulging as that will dramatically impact costs.

If it is just a bad wall and needs a simple rebuild, £x.

If the obviously collapsing chimney stack is forcing the structure out, you're in £many-x

If the collapsing chimney structure has also moved the roof in a way that it is also rotating the walls, you are in £many-many-x

If the chimney is collapsing because of a fundamnetal foundation issue, well you get my drift ...

Without knowing why the wall is bulging, pursuing a simple rebuild of the bulgy bit given the state of the chimney would, to my mind, be naive.

 

[jansmith]

As stated, it's the whole wall. I am well aware of the state of the chimney etc, which is another project on its own. It's a REALLY old building - almost no foundations and plenty of movement. The only way to NOT knock it down, would be to prop up the roof structure around eaves height and put new foundations/underpinning. I am sure there is ground movement - not surpising in a house dating 400 years old. The question is, what would this cost, and the best way to go about it.

 

[Kearn]

As stated, it's the whole wall. I am well aware of the state of the chimney etc, which is another project on its own. It's a REALLY old building - almost no foundations and plenty of movement. The only way to NOT knock it down, would be to prop up the roof structure around eaves height and put new foundations/underpinning. I am sure there is ground movement - not surpising in a house dating 400 years old. The question is, what would this cost, and the best way to go about it.

That’s not a simple ‘only way’ of approaching an old building at all.

Partial underpinning is a very risky approach, as you are changing the equilibrium of the entire structure by over engineering a discrete area in isolation.

Ground movement is also highly unlikely to bow a wall outwards, lateral forces far more likely at play - a failing roof transferring its load and now pushing outwards, inserted floors creating live loads sideways… no point repairing a wall when the loads on it may still not be reconciled.

 

[Flyfisher]

It's a REALLY old building - almost no foundations and plenty of movement. The only way to NOT knock it down, would be to prop up the roof structure around eaves height and put new foundations/underpinning. I am sure there is ground movement - not surpising in a house dating 400 years old. The question is, what would this cost, and the best way to go about it.

I live in a REALLY old building, G2* & c.1550. It has pretty much no foundations and has plenty of movement. Some of the bedrooms have a noticeable slope to them to the extent that the beds need to be propped at one end for a level night's sleep. The ridge line of the roof is clearly sloping as it followed the movement of the house beneath it. I've no real idea if the house is still moving but I am confident it is not about to fall down. There was a section of rubble wall that seemed to be 'on the move' judging by cracks in the mortar but the previous owner said it had been like that for as long as they could remember. That was about 30 years before I took it on and it took me another 10 years or so to get around to repairing the wall during which I discovered that much of the wall material could be removed by hand! But it never did fall down.

My point is that these REALLY old buildings are REALLY old because they are substantially built and have stood the test of time. The really bad ones have already fallen down. Of course they are not perfect but that's what a few hundred years can do to a building and few of them simply 'fall down' without help from over-zealous parties who would rather rebuild something than repair it.

I don't know how much it will cost to do the works you have described and with all due respect to the many and very experienced owners of REALLY old listed properties on this forum, nor do they because there is simply not enough information on which to base a sensible answer. If you are serious about purchasing this property, I suggest you find a surveyor that specialises in REALLY old properties and get them to carry out a full structural survey and prepare a schedule of works together with cost estimates. I would also recommend that you spend the day or two with the surveyor while they are on site so that you can ask detailed questions and to be sure they are assessing the things you are most concerned about. I say this because they will likely give you a more realistic assessment verbally than their eventual written report that will veer towards the worst case scenarios in order to cover themselves. I don't know how much such a survey will cost these days but mine was a little over £2000 some 18 years ago. I'd say it was fair value for money but it was the day I spent with the surveyor asking questions that was the real value.