Servants call bell system

[Michael M]

I’m looking to convert a Victorian servants call bell system to wifi and need help

 

[Cubist]

You need to specify how exactly you expect the bell to be triggered and whether there may be several different bells for different rooms in the house. Without that you may need to speak to Jeaves but, as far as I'm aware he isn't a member here.

 

[fernicarry]

Ah yes, I've always wanted to be able to summon my servants wirelessly...

Your request is a bit short on detail. Is it an electrical call system? The one in this house worked on a series of rods and wires in tubes. Some of the wires and cranks are still up in the loft.

What do you imagine the end point looks like? A pop up on your phone? An input into some other automation system?

Something like an RPi has the IO ports to facilitate this and there are generic apps that offer a push notification service via an internet facing API that you can home-brew together. For a while I had one rigged up that messaged my phone when the front door bell was pushed.

 

[fernicarry]

Occurs to me that what the OP may want is a way to wirelessly connect the call buttons with the indicators back of house. The original wiring having been lost to time. Maybe check out Shelly devices.

 

[Mulder]

Occurs to me that what the OP may want is a way to wirelessly connect the call buttons with the indicators back of house. The original wiring having been lost to time. Maybe check out Shelly devices.

Yes, Shelly type devices are the way to go, quite easy for someone technical setup a basic action and response rule on something like HomeAssistant. But you're going to need some custom circuitry to retrofit a contact button onto the old servant bells. This is probably not the right forum for this and I'm not really sure where you would get the expertise from either.
You may find it significantly easier to just replace/repair the existing wiring and a local electrician can probably help with that.

 

[Michael M]

You need to specify how exactly you expect the bell to be triggered and whether there may be several different bells for different rooms in the house. Without that you may need to speak to Jeaves but, as far as I'm aware he isn't a member here.

Ah yes, I've always wanted to be able to summon my servants wirelessly...

Your request is a bit short on detail. Is it an electrical call system? The one in this house worked on a series of rods and wires in tubes. Some of the wires and cranks are still up in the loft.

What do you imagine the end point looks like? A pop up on your phone? An input into some other automation system?

Something like an RPi has the IO ports to facilitate this and there are generic apps that offer a push notification service via an internet facing API that you can home-brew together. For a while I had one rigged up that messaged my phone when the front door bell was pushed.

I want to use a display as in the photo but instead of a wired system to each bell push in different rooms I like to utilise WiFi bell push buttons.

 

[Michael M]

Occurs to me that what the OP may want is a way to wirelessly connect the call buttons with the indicators back of house. The original wiring having been lost to time. Maybe check out Shelly devices.

Yes!Exactly I wish yo dispense with wired bell pushes in favour of wifi or Bluetooth

 

[Michael M]

Yes, Shelly type devices are the way to go, quite easy for someone technical setup a basic action and response rule on something like HomeAssistant. But you're going to need some custom circuitry to retrofit a contact button onto the old servant bells. This is probably not the right forum for this and I'm not really sure where you would get the expertise from either.
You may find it significantly easier to just replace/repair the existing wiring and a local electrician can probably help with that.

There is no existing wireing. I was planning to buy a vintage servants call box and fit it in my home wirelessly.

 

[Cubist]

If I remember correctly those old display panels were operated using a simple, low power, electrical circuit operated by a switch in each room. The problem you would have is a control processor would have to be installed behind and within such a panel that can then be programmed to recognise the origin of the each potential signal. A wifi enabled device in each room would also be needed to issue the unique signal to initiate the bell and there would also have to be some way of 'closing/re-setting' that demand signal.

All that is entirely possible but I suspect that with a very limited market for such a device in a domestic setting you will not find anything on the general market that could be re-purposed easily. My guess would be that unless you are a more than competent home electronics buff the this could become a very expensive project.

 

[Michael M]

If I remember correctly those old display panels were operated using a simple, low power, electrical circuit operated by a switch in each room. The problem you would have is a control processor would have to be installed behind and within such a panel that can then be programmed to recognise the origin of the each potential signal. A wifi enabled device in each room would also be needed to issue the unique signal to initiate the bell and there would also have to be some way of 'closing/re-setting' that demand signal.

All that is entirely possible but I suspect that with a very limited market for such a device in a domestic setting you will not find anything on the general market that could be re-purposed easily. My guess would be that unless you are a more than competent home electronics buff the this could become a very expensive project.

Thank you for your considered reply with which I agree

 

[Flyfisher]

I've recently done exactly this.

We had an existing electrical bell/flag system that was wired to push button switches throughout the house (including one in the attic!).
The system was elegantly simple whereby each switch closed a circuit consisting of an electromagnet with the 'flag' attached and a common return through a single electric bell. When the push-switch closed, the electromagnet pulled the 'flag' to one side and the bell rang, when the push-switch was released, the electromagnet released the 'flag', which then swung back and forth and the bell stopped ringing. Thus, in operation, the single bell rang for any switch press and when the staff looked up at the panel, the 'flag' movement identified which room had called for attention.

Our panel was installed in the original kitchen and I wanted to move it to our new kitchen but I didn't want to install new wires all over the place so a wireless solution seemed the way to go. I initially considered modifying standard wireless doorbells but although I found ones that could have multiple bells, I couldn't find any that could have multiple switches. I then considered a bespoke radio system based on licence-free transmitter/receiver chips to send a unique 4-bit code from each switch that could be decoded at the receiver to operate one of 16 bell circuits (my panel only needed 14 circuits), but range was a bit of an issue and I felt it would not be sufficiently reliable.

In the end, I decided to integrate the panel into my existing Home Assistant (HA) home automation system that I was already using for various things (mainly lighting and heating timers etc). Someone mentioned Shelly devices in a previous post and these are indeed very easy to use and I've used many thoughout my HA system. I initially got one 'room' of the panel working with Shelly devices as a sort of 'proof of concept'. However, although I wanted to get the panel working again, unless I won the lottery it was never going to be used in practice to summon staff from across 14 different locations, and I didn't want to spend too much on what would ultimately be a curiosity.

So I eventually settled on using small ESP32-C3 boards which are ridiculously cheap (£3.50 each) for the computing power and interfaces they support. They are also very easy to integrate into a Home Assistant system. More accurately, I should probably say they are very easy to use if you have a background in digital electronics and programming or are sufficiently interested in such things that spending hours 'playing around' with them is your thing.

But this is not the place for a detailed tutorial, only to confirm that it can be done for a modest financial outlay and a somewhat greater outlay in terms of time., though I'm happy to provide more details if it might help.

A final thought; while it is fun to demonstrate the system, in practice (for me anyway) its only really useful function is to act as a main door bell (for which I bought a pull-rod and chain switch, but that's another story) and for that function alone it would have been far simpler to hard-wire that one particular circuit . . . though perhaps not as much fun

 

[LadyArowana]

They are also very easy to integrate into a Home Assistant system. More accurately, I should probably say they are very easy to use if you have a background in digital electronics and programming or are sufficiently interested in such things that spending hours 'playing around' with them is your thing.

I absolutely love your system, but given the above qualifier I think I shall have to stick to using WhatsApp to summon Jeeves and his Lordship. It appears our house did once have them as I saw evidence of the call system beside some of the fireplaces. I was keen to re-instate a pull by the front door at least, but I couldn’t find anything the same size as the brass plate already cut into the stone for the electric bell and the idea was abandoned, much to my builders delight. He was not keen on messing about with wires, pulleys and linkages when some wiring was an easy option.

 

[Cubist]

I absolutely love your system, but given the above qualifier I think I shall have to stick to using WhatsApp to summon Jeeves and his Lordship. It appears our house did once have them as I saw evidence of the call system beside some of the fireplaces. I was keen to re-instate a pull by the front door at least, but I couldn’t find anything the same size as the brass plate already cut into the stone for the electric bell and the idea was abandoned, much to my builders delight. He was not keen on messing about with wires, pulleys and linkages when some wiring was an easy option.

And this is exactly why I would never countenance such a proposal for this place and anyway - a bellowed demand for coffee is more much more personal.... and unwisely ignored here.

 

[phillc]

Can Shelly devices be set to non-latching for WiFi signals (instructions only refer to the wired switch connection as far as I can see)? That strikes me as the biggest difficulty here: If the OP is to replicate servant bell behaviour, they're going to need something that only rings the bell (and holds the flag up against the electromagnet) while they're pressing a button on their phone. Once they stop pressing, the bell needs to stop and the flag needs to be released to swing.

I don't know of any WiFi "smart" devices that do that. The ones I know are latching. Press on the phone once for on. Press again for off. Perhaps that's ok for the OP?

If it is, then this is quite easy if you're happy for inelegant: Buy a Shelly device or equivalent for each room and install next to the indicator board, Wire it up to mains to power it. Wire a 12V power supply (maybe 6V - will need a bit of trial and error to see what voltage is needed to make the bell ring; go minimum) through the 0 input, 1 output to the flag e/m input, then shared return from the bell?

 

[Cubist]

No need. A simple binary switch associated with each wi fi device does the job - first press of the button switches the bell and flag on, the bell should then stop after a few moments but the flag remains set until the same device switches it off. It's a messy approach and one that will become very annoying unless a secondary timer function is associated with the flag to switch it off after an interval of a few minutes. Jeaves was a very useful bloke in many respects.

 

[phillc]

No need. A simple binary switch associated with each wi fi device does the job - first press of the button switches the bell and flag on, the bell should then stop after a few moments but the flag remains set until the same device switches it off. It's a messy approach and one that will become very annoying unless a secondary timer function is associated with the flag to switch it off after an interval of a few minutes. Jeaves was a very useful bloke in many respects.

I sort of think we're saying the same thing but then I am also confused - what's a "binary switch"?

There are kind of broadly two types of switch, afaik: One that sends a single signal *when* it is pressed (generally associated with a latching receiver - and the signal is "open latch [=circuit, turn the thing off]" or "close latch [=circuit, turn the thing on]") and one that sends a continuous signal *while* it is pressed (generally associated with a non latching receiver - sound the doorbell while the button is pressed).

I don't know of a non latching WiFi thing - likely my ignorance, although such a thing would be quite sophisticated. Even wireless doorbells aren't - you press the button, it sends a single signal *when* it is pressed to play a single ring tone cycle. So, as I think we're both saying, the OP would be stuck with a latching arrangement: Some sort of press the button, the bell rings and the flag rises until the button is pressed again. Which would be very annoying if button press 2 didn't happen quickly ...

You seem to suggest the bell would stop ringing in such a latching setup. I assume the bell is also an electromagnet make/break type - electromagnet gets energised, pulls down the ringer to hit the bell, this breaks the circuit, deenergises the e/m. A spring pulls the ringer back up, remakes the circuit, on comes the e/m and we start again. That would be normal for bells of this vintage. So, I am struggling to fathom how you could have a setup where the electromagnet and the bell are in series on a circuit and the flag electromagnet remains energised without also operating the one on the bell?

Genuine questions: I am probably being very dumb and I am definitely not trying to argue - I am trying to learn

 

[phillc]

I think I have it. I think you and I have different understandings of how the flags work.

My understanding of how the flags work (based on mine at home) is that they are dangling freely. If no-one is pressing a bell button, they are all visible in their windows. When someone presses a bell button, the associated electromagnet for that flag is energised while the button is pressed and pulls the flag for that window up and stops it there. As soon as the button is let go the flag is released and swings like a pendulum in front of the window. Jeeves needs to look at the windows to see which flag is moving.

I understand your reply about the bell stopping ringing but the flag needing a second press better if you believe the flags work by the button presses toggling them between static open and closed states. Press to "close" (like a door) the flag so it is visible in the window to get service; remember to press again to "open" (like a door) so it is not visible in the window when Jeeves has brought the tea.

If so, I am pretty convinced I'm right as to how they work (but not necessarily all the electronics conclusions from there!) - but happy to be corrected.

Ultimately, the way you then get around all this is to have some sort of setup where a "send a signal when it is pressed" switch sends a signal to a receiver that can be programmed to energise the bell/flag circuit for a set amount of time to simulate a typical button press, say 5 seconds. I assume this is what Flyfisher has done with his clever programming above!

 

[Cubist]

Sorry, the reference to binary harks back to my now thankfully distant computing background. It's the Base2 numeric system used in a computer as a switch condition signifying whether that switch it is On or Off. In a modern version of this Butlers Telegraph system all the logic to control the sounding of the bell and for how long and activation/deactivation of the flags would be embedded in a simple microprocessor.

 

[phillc]

"There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't".

(It's an oldie but a goodie).

 

[Cubist]

"There are only 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't".

(It's an oldie but a goodie).

That gets an equivocal but definitive Yes (1) and No (0).